General FUEL - Introduction of E10 petrol for historic vehicle owners

[the hobbler]

Thank you Jo for putting me right---was it the same in South America where the Ethanol is made from suger cane? The problem in the UK is FINDING ethanol-free fuel---technically, none of it should be. The closest I have come to 'ethanol-free' fuel is the Esso 'Super 97'---but only in some areas of the UK---not all. Even then,the garages won't (or can') tell you if their fuel is ethanol-free. I have tried to contact Esso themselves, but with no response at all.

 

[fiat500]

There's no need for a big fuss about ethanol. It's been used in cars since the earliest developments of the internal combustion engine. From Wikipedia: Henry Ford said it was the fuel of the future, Harry Ricardo (Rolls Royce engine) thought it was a necessary alternative fuel. Cleveland Discol, (with ethanol) was available in the UK until 1968.
Although only having used one full tank, my car still runs perfectly...no adjustments.

 

[fiat500]

Apparently, in the early 1980's, the US Armed Forces and Government commissioned some trials to discover if alcohol fuels had a negative effect on engine wear. This excluded the known negative effect that alcohol has on stored fuel and on fuel delivery components.

This interesting video was dropped on my You Tube feed. In summary, the overall wear on an engine was found to be similar when 10% ethanol was added to petrol. Pure ethanol had some advantages in terms of engine deposits, methanol....well don't go there!

https://youtu.be/ATGSBi1kBl0

 

[Bigvtwin996]

along long time ago ....
during the 2nd world war the US commissioned various scientists to look at how it would be possible to power vehicles.after the "Invasion"
they assumed that the Nazis would destroy all fuel supplies to hamper progress...
A book was produced basically so vehicles could be run and almost anything available....
I can't recall the books name (I sort a copy many years ago...)
but in the 70s during one of the fuel crisis's the ere was an update produced....
It can be found for sale on ebay etc....
"Browns Alcohol Fuel Cookbook"
I think it contains details of how to create your own still and how to modify cars to run on alcohol...
clearly it would be an interesting read as it would be aimed at cars of the time....

 

[500nuova]

Peter, In many places creating your own still to cook your own fuel might be difficult to explain to the Long Arm of the Law...


But in general, alcohol fuels (methyl and ethyl) requires a lot more fuel for the same amount of air, so I'm thinking bigger jets would be the first place to look if you really want to go all out on ethanol or even the E85 we can buy here in the states.

 

[Bigvtwin996]

Peter, In many places creating your own still to cook your own fuel might be difficult to explain to the Long Arm of the Law...


But in general, alcohol fuels (methyl and ethyl) requires a lot more fuel for the same amount of air, so I'm thinking bigger jets would be the first place to look if you really want to go all out on ethanol or even the E85 we can buy here in the states.

Well despite all the "myths" it is possible to own and operate a still in the UK legally...
you have to apply for a "license"...
However I believe that there are other regulations you must follow that mean you literally have to have a Bonded warehouse and produce several 000 litres each week... which somewhat makes DIY impossible...

I am sure I read somewhere about a racer who produced his own race fuel....

 

[the hobbler]

There is every possibility thaat you will need bigger jets. VW in South America (I can't remember whether it is Brazil or Argentina) were modified to run on their 'suger-cane ethanol' fuel----it would be interesting to find out how much they had to alter the jetting to run on the home-brewed fuel vis-a-vie the 'normal' jetting for the same engine being driven in Europe.

 

[Bounding Bambino]

There is every possibility thaat you will need bigger jets. VW in South America (I can't remember whether it is Brazil or Argentina) were modified to run on their 'suger-cane ethanol' fuel----it would be interesting to find out how much they had to alter the jetting to run on the home-brewed fuel vis-a-vie the 'normal' jetting for the same engine being driven in Europe.

This right here folks.

Ethanol blends are becoming more popular here in NA, typically all fuel in the past year has approx a minimum of 10% ethanol in my neck of the woods. Majority of new cars have a ethanol fuel sensor (sometimes called a flex fuel sensor), that can alter the fuel maps dynamical based upon variations in ethanol content.

Thinking that low % ethanol blends will instantly hurt a classic car i dont believe is a concern, ethanol theoretically has a higher octane/RON rating then traditional fuels, so knock should in theory be less of a problem. The major issue is, ethanol is less energy dense then a typical fuel by volume. So.. a car that runs a perfect fuel mixture on 100% gas, will run lean on a higher percentage ethanol fuel blend. Older cars can be very sensitive to this. I daily drive a classic benz, and fortunetly the ethanol blend doesn't affect the picky bosh KE-jetronic much.. I wouldn't dare try and run E85 unless i tuned and use it all the time.

Calculating E% by mass and then getting an approx combined energy density (100% ethanol has 66% the energy density per volume).

Ethanol might not be a ultra high concern in daily drivers, but it still has major issues for "leisurely" and limited use vehicles. Its absolutely terrible in the marine industry due to its hygroscopic properties, and doesn't even have remotely near the pot life of "traditional" fuel. When using ethanol fuels in classic cars that sit around from time to time, a fuel stabilizer or ethanol neutralizer additive is a must from my experience.

 

[chris3234]

Actually you have it sort of backwards. Ethanol was really started as a farm subsidy for US corn growers. At the time they were growing so much corn they couldn't sell it fast enough and it rotted in silos. Rather than face a new reality someone cooked up the idea of ethanol which as you pointed out really doesn't help the environment.

My experience is it works fine if you run your engine regularly. If anything is going to be sitting for a while I try to find ethanol free. I always run all my vehicles with 1 tank of ethanol free and then top up again with same before I store them for the winter. Haven't had any major issues by doing that.

It would work if it was made entirely from waste food but not growing good food and making into ethanol

 

[fiat500]

I'm through two fills of E10 now..probably around 35 litres. Yesterday I enjoyed a 160 mile drive, largely on straight, fast roads. The engine seemed really happy with the deal, with excellent power output, tickover and good hot-starts. I checked a spark plug halfway through the day and the colour was spot-on despite the mixture not having been readjusted.

That's about 350 miles so far; not a real test. But all the signs are that E10 might actually be a good thing for my car.

Has anyone else given the fuel a fair trial yet?

 

[Troubles with 500c]

Had my first experience of pulling into a Petrol Station and all pumps were E10. Had to head to our local Tesco to fill up.

 

[Bleeding Knuckles]

along long time ago ....
during the 2nd world war the US commissioned various scientists to look at how it would be possible to power vehicles.after the "Invasion"
they assumed that the Nazis would destroy all fuel supplies to hamper progress...
A book was produced basically so vehicles could be run and almost anything available....
I can't recall the books name (I sort a copy many years ago...)
but in the 70s during one of the fuel crisis's the ere was an update produced....
It can be found for sale on ebay etc....
"Browns Alcohol Fuel Cookbook"
I think it contains details of how to create your own still and how to modify cars to run on alcohol...
clearly it would be an interesting read as it would be aimed at cars of the time....

I remember during my army days that the Leyland L60 tank engine was designed to be 'Multifuel' we were assured that it would run ok on russian vodka !!! To wit my crew colleague said "sod that I'll drink the stuff first"
we did try a mixture of fuel though and it did indeed take petrol, kerosene some very rough diesel and heating oil too, I had heard that one wag tried old fish and chip oil - yes it ran, but the smell was terrible :yuck::yuck::yuck:
Ian.

 

[the hobbler]

"Troubles with 500c" (you must let have your name---we can't keep calling that all the time!)--is that a Topolino that you have? Do you have an Esso garage near you? Although, by law, their very top grade fuel is marked 'E5' in most areas of the UK, the very top (97/99 octane) Esso fuel is , according to the Esso website, Ethanol free. I am using it in my tuned (126 engine) 500, but as I can't get a sensible answer out of the garage, or ANY answer from Esso, I still put the 'anti-ethanol' gunge in the fuel tank.

 

[fiat500]

"Troubles with 500c" (you must let have your name---we can't keep calling that all the time!)--is that a Topolino that you have? Do you have an Esso garage near you? Although, by law, their very top grade fuel is marked 'E5' in most areas of the UK, the very top (97/99 octane) Esso fuel is , according to the Esso website, Ethanol free. I am using it in my tuned (126 engine) 500, but as I can't get a sensible answer out of the garage, or ANY answer from Esso, I still put the 'anti-ethanol' gunge in the fuel tank.

Ethanol raises the octane rating of petrol, so the high octane, ethanol-free petrol has other chemicals added in order to do the same. Is that not something to be interested in?

I've read that the main purpose of "anti-ethanol" products is largely to create a microscopic, protective coating inside the fuel tank. But these molecules protect against potential, direct corrosive effects of ethanol and are not soluble in water. So the water already at the bottom of the tank can still cause corrosion.

Almost all of us will already have water from condensation in the fuel tank, some of which will be from the good old days before E5. E10 may make this problem worse, but the key thing is to use the car as much as possible and maybe, this winter, to remove the tanks and use modern products to clean, derust and protect them.

As far as the engine running is concerned, E10 is a better tasting drink than E5, which was better than straightforward unleaded which we used to have.

 

[Troubles with 500c]

"Troubles with 500c" (you must let have your name---we can't keep calling that all the time!)--is that a Topolino that you have? Do you have an Esso garage near you? Although, by law, their very top grade fuel is marked 'E5' in most areas of the UK, the very top (97/99 octane) Esso fuel is , according to the Esso website, Ethanol free. I am using it in my tuned (126 engine) 500, but as I can't get a sensible answer out of the garage, or ANY answer from Esso, I still put the 'anti-ethanol' gunge in the fuel tank.

My name is Andy.

The 500C is the wife’s car (which I do enjoy driving). My classics at the moment are an Alfa Romeo Spider and a Porsche 944.

It was in the 944 that I suddenly realised that stopping for petrol wasn’t going to be that straight forward anymore.

We don’t have a local Esso Petrol Station. Was very surprised the BP Station had converted all pumps to E10.

 

[the hobbler]

Shell 'V' power fuel is still only 5% ethanol---have you got a Shell garage near you Andy?

 

[Troubles with 500c]

We have a Shell Station and will be using V Power as well. The 99 Octane rating is works better in both cars.

It will be interesting to see how long these stations will continue to stock these higher octane E5 fuels.