Technical Front Swivels

[GBGraham]

Just a tad confused (again). the rubber boot on the top swivel has some perishing so I ordered new top and bottom swivels which were under different part numbers by the supplier (Oldtimer Shop) but once arrived they are both showing the same manufacturers part no. Teknovam 7922.
So my question is for anyone that is in the know, are they different or not?
Also in the photo which I am taking as original because it's riveted, does anyone know what is the hex in the top is, original or added as a mod?

 

[bugsymike]

Don't know if top and bottom different, but on Ladas in early 70s with same 124 Fiat type suspension the hex bolt was for a grease nipple.

 

[GBGraham]

Don't know if top and bottom different, but on Ladas in early 70s with same 124 Fiat type suspension the hex bolt was for a grease nipple.

Cheer #bugsymike, they do look identical to me, there was 4 cents difference in price but one did have a bigger box so maybe that is where the price difference is
I did ask about grease nipples in another thread but only got reprimanded for reusing Haynes terminology for swivels and never really got a straight answer about grease nipples
I won't bother drilling and taping the new swivels, I'll will have probably met my demise before they need any lube

 

[bugsymike]

Cheer #bugsymike, they do look identical to me, there was 4 cents difference in price but one did have a bigger box so maybe that is where the price difference is
I did ask about grease nipples in another thread but only got reprimanded for reusing Haynes terminology for swivels and never really got a straight answer about grease nipples
I won't bother drilling and taping the new swivels, I'll will have probably met my demise before they need any lube

Mind you if they are Lada Russian copies badged as Fiat like some ignition switches etc. online, you may still out live them.

 

[GBGraham]

Okay folks, I have replaced one of the top swivels and they are different in sizes, the *outer race housing for the top swivel is 4mm smaller in diameter to fit the arm aperture. So in theory looking at these I suppose the top one would fit the lower swivel but not as a vice versa.
*apologies to those concerned if this is the wrong terminology

 

[bugsymike]

That makes sense with most of the loading on the bottom swivel suspension joint.
If they don't outlast you, at least with them being bolt on now you will have an easier job.

 

[GBGraham]

That makes sense with most of the loading on the bottom swivel suspension joint.
If they don't outlast you, at least with them being bolt on now you will have an easier job.

Bloody hell #bugsymike I'll be very annoyed if I have to change them again, one down and three to go

 

[bugsymike]

Bloody hell #bugsymike I'll be very annoyed if I have to change them again, one down and three to go

How long are you planning on hanging around?

 

[124BC1]

Just a tad confused (again). the rubber boot on the top swivel has some perishing so I ordered new top and bottom swivels which were under different part numbers by the supplier (Oldtimer Shop) but once arrived they are both showing the same manufacturers part no. Teknovam 7922.
So my question is for anyone that is in the know, are they different or not?
---------------------------what is the hex in the top is, original or added as a mod?

The original ball joints on the early Coupes had a separate rubber boot attached to a sheet metal plate so, in theory, the boot alone could be changed and the joint re-used if unworn (a bit of a faff though as the rivets had to be drilled out anyway and the ball joint refitted using bolts and nuts).

The top and bottom ball joints are different - if you consult your Haynes manual and check out 'Fig. 11.3. Section of L.H. front wheel and suspension' you can examine the cross sectional view of both ball joints :-

Because of how the suspension is loaded in use, the top ball joint ball pin is mainly being pushed up against the top plate of the ball joint, whereas the lower ball joint pin is mainly being pulled up and out of the ball joint - this difference in direction of main loading requires different methods of construction.
The 'top-hat' protrusion on the original bottom ball joints, contained, iirc, a rubber spacer to take up any slight play and also prevent rattling if the wheel drops suddenly, e.g. into a pothole, which can cause the ball joint pin to be pushed downwards.
When road-testing the car, this rattle over uneven surfaces is a good clue that one or both of the bottom ball joints might be worn...

Being unable to see the construction details inside the new ball joints, (without possibly X-raying them?) I'd 'play it safe', return the ball joints and source ones that match the originals. Alternatively, I might use 2 of the new ones on the top A arms but not on the bottom A Arms.
Other European 124 parts suppliers list the correct pattern ball joints at reasonable cost e.g. https://www.fiatparts.de

I agree with @bugsymike the hex is a blanking pug to allow the fitting of a grease nipple - I'm not sure why Fiat didn't fit grease nipples in the 1st place, possibly it was to prevent water ingress?. On my own cars, I've drilled and tapped any replacement ball joints that came without provision for greasing - if kept regularly greased, the ball joints, even possibly inferior replacements, will likely last a very long time, plus the extra grease will hopefully help to keep water out. Often new replacement joints have little grease inside from new, any water that gets in causes the ball joint pin to rust which will accelerate wear on it's seating/cup.

 

[GBGraham]

How long are you planning on hanging around?

Out of the two and like the car they keep trying to rebuild me but realistically I do know which is going to win

 

[GBGraham]

The original ball joints on the early Coupes had a separate rubber boot attached to a sheet metal plate so, in theory, the boot alone could be changed and the joint re-used if unworn (a bit of a faff though as the rivets had to be drilled out anyway and the ball joint refitted using bolts and nuts).

The top and bottom ball joints are different - if you consult your Haynes manual and check out 'Fig. 11.3. Section of L.H. front wheel and suspension' you can examine the cross sectional view of both ball joints :-

View attachment 490147


Because of how the suspension is loaded in use, the top ball joint ball pin is mainly being pushed up against the top plate of the ball joint, whereas the lower ball joint pin is mainly being pulled up and out of the ball joint - this difference in direction of main loading requires different methods of construction.
The 'top-hat' protrusion on the original bottom ball joints, contained, iirc, a rubber spacer to take up any slight play and also prevent rattling if the wheel drops suddenly, e.g. into a pothole, which can cause the ball joint pin to be pushed downwards.
When road-testing the car, this rattle over uneven surfaces is a good clue that one or both of the bottom ball joints might be worn...

Being unable to see the construction details inside the new ball joints, (without possibly X-raying them?) I'd 'play it safe', return the ball joints and source ones that match the originals. Alternatively, I might use 2 of the new ones on the top A arms but not on the bottom A Arms.
Other European 124 parts suppliers list the correct pattern ball joints at reasonable cost e.g. https://www.fiatparts.de

View attachment 490143View attachment 490144


I agree with @bugsymike the hex is a blanking pug to allow the fitting of a grease nipple - I'm not sure why Fiat didn't fit grease nipples in the 1st place, possibly it was to prevent water ingress?. On my own cars, I've drilled and tapped any replacement ball joints that came without provision for greasing - if kept regularly greased, the ball joints, even possibly inferior replacements, will likely last a very long time, plus the extra grease will hopefully help to keep water out. Often new replacement joints have little grease inside from new, any water that gets in causes the ball joint pin to rust which will accelerate wear on it's seating/cup.

Thank you once again for your intense input. How do we know what we are buying until we get it because you can't tell from the posted picture, if I had to take a guess I would say it's an aftermarket product by some manufacturer or another.
These people you show sold me a steering box shown as a for a Fiat 124 and when it arrived it was a Lada unit at a Fiat price!!
As for grease nipples and as I said on a earlier post I did try to glean this info in another thread without anything positive and I am now undecided because the car is not an everyday car. I probably wouldn't ever choose to take it out in rain and Greece does boast 300 days of sunshine a year so at this moment I don't think I will bother even though I had already got the grease nipples ready . . . all that is unless someone advises me different

 

[jackwhoo]

Don't fit grease nipples you won't be happy with them.

On many ball joints with grease nipples the ball is slightly different than non grease nipple types to allow grease to get to both sides of ball.
If a grease nipple is fitted to a non grease nipple type and someone goes crazy with grease gun the joint can be damaged by the massive pressure some grease guns can achieve.

I'm not going anywhere near the Lada/Fiat crossover @bugsymike knows all about that.

If you want genuine Fiat part you will have to pay a big premium , many parts would have to be old stock due to no longer manufactured, that's if old stock available. Otherwise you will have to have aftermarket.
The forum can't answer what parts you will receive from suppliers. If you unsure ask supplier for photo ahead of order. If you get something you don't think matches your order return it for a refund.
This is just a part of owning an older car and it can be frustrating try not to let it get too much.

 

[GBGraham]

Don't fit grease nipples you won't be happy with them.

On many ball joints with grease nipples the ball is slightly different than non grease nipple types to allow grease to get to both sides of ball.
If a grease nipple is fitted to a non grease nipple type and someone goes crazy with grease gun the joint can be damaged by the massive pressure some grease guns can achieve.

I'm not going anywhere near the Lada/Fiat crossover @bugsymike knows all about that.

If you want genuine Fiat part you will have to pay a big premium , many parts would have to be old stock due to no longer manufactured, that's if old stock available. Otherwise you will have to have aftermarket.
The forum can't answer what parts you will receive from suppliers. If you unsure ask supplier for photo ahead of order. If you get something you don't think matches your order return it for a refund.
This is just a part of owning an older car and it can be frustrating try not to let it get too much.

I totally agree with all your sentiments #jackwhoo, I wasn't asking for the forum to tell me anything, just stating an obvious question of how do any of us know. I don't believe H&N have any different suppliers to all the other independent EU suppliers. But on the other hand it would be good to know of any negative/positive news on parts that are offered out there in the mainstream.

The manufacturer of the swivels isTeknovam is a Spanish manufacturer and supplier of automotive spare parts (repuestos para automóviles), est 1968 primarily known for aftermarket components suited to older, classic, or specific European vehicle models.

I have asked Grok (AI) for any negatives on this company and they can't come up with anything so I'm presuming they are reputable.

Onwards and upwards

 

[jackwhoo]

Yes it is an obvious question.
The answer is you have to ask each supplier the appropriate questions for each item every time you order unless the questions are answered on their website.

Keep in mind these vehicles are now aged and it's not possible to just order genuine parts from the dealer.

Some people enjoy the aspect of finding good quality parts for old vehicles.