Technical Fitting intercooler from 8140.47 to 8140.27 engine?

[Cyberkul]

Hi! I noticed a thread where an intercooler from a 2.8 engine was fitted to a 8140.27 engine. Wouldnt it be easier to fit an intercooler from a 8140.47 engine to a 8140.27 engine instead? I thought these engines were about the same? From the scrapyard the intercooler itself can be had for about $100, but which other components are required, if this is worth doing at all?

 

[Communicator]

Hi Cyberkul,

From what I have read elsewhere, you are correct. The 8140.47 engine is an intercooled version of the 8140.27. The 8140.47 delivers a higher torque, and has a higher maximum power output.

In addition to the intercooler, you will need pipework, and pressure hoses to connect the cooler between the turbo outlet and the inlet manifold. Also make full use of the intercooler, the injection pump will need adjusting so as to slightly increase the amount of fuel injected. You do not get extra torque/power for nothing.

Is it worth it? My own experience was with a 2.5TD non intercooled Talbot Express. With a coachbuilt motorhome body, it struggled in headwinds, and when climbing some gradients. I had an intercooler fitted late in my long period of ownership. I wished that It had been done sooner. In the end it is a commercial decision.

 

[Cyberkul]

Thanks So it is not necessary to change the inlet manifold and turbo? I'll call the scrapyard and ask which parts are available.

 

[Communicator]

The manifold and turbo were not changed when the intercooler was fitted to my Peugeot engined Talbot Express. However the company that carried out the work, had made a speciality of retrofitting turbos and intercoolers. As turbo engined vehicles became more common, the niche market disappeared, and the business collapsed.

The work involved took at least a whole day, and we spent a night in our MH on the company's premises. I think that it would not be a simple DIY task, but perhaps possible with high temperature hoses.

My advice is to research the project with great care before starting.

 

[Cyberkul]

Thanks! I'm no expert, so it has to be a more or less direct swap, if I want to do it myself. Didn't talk to the scrap yard so far, I'll try again over the weekend.

 

[airwave]

From the scrapyard the intercooler itself can be had for about $100, but which other components are required, if this is worth doing at all?

Please be aware , I think it only fair to mention , i'm across the ditch , and i think i should also add , i misread your original post at first , and have just twigged your talking about converting an 8140.27 engine . Now this appears to be a 2.5 , series 1 van , not the 2.8 i thought you were talking of . However , as i'd written most of this before i realised , i decided to continue and post this , as it maybe of some use somewhere .

Now speaking as someone who currently owns an Iveco 8140.43 , 2.8 intercooled engine . The conversion in my eyes , should be relatively straight forward . The intercooler is positioned alongside the radiator on the near side of the vehicle , so , so long as the rads match this should not present much of an issue . Of particular attention should be the rad overflow tube , which should be at the top nearside of the vehicle . I can't imagine this being different , but a quick check maybe advisable .
Furthermore , as the bolt on crossmember is now a generic part , the mounting holes (two , similar to the radiator) , should also be in place . Even if they are not , the crossmember is easily sourced . However you will need two additional rubber mounts from a rad , to secure the intercooler to the beam ( again relatively easy to source) . One area you may have an issue is the upper mount . Basically the intercooler is held in place by one radiator fixing (once again easily sourced) in much the same way as the rad .
You will need both feed tubes , these can be outsourced , but maybe difficult to find at times . They are basically large bore , about 2" but be aware one side actually consists of three parts , two rubber and a metal insert , that bolts to the intercooler . You will see what i mean when you look at the donor vehicle .
Now we come to an area i can't assess very , the fitting into the manifold . This could possibly be different . Basically one pipe feeds from the turbo to the cooler , the other feeds from the cooler to the manifold . On my vehicle , this is also where my flame cold start burner is fitted , so it's fair to say , this maybe an area of contention , if you have glow plugs . I've not had this area apart extensively , so i'm pretty much blind on this area . My need was access to the thermostat housing , so i left the manifold fitting alone . I don't know what does , or doesn't come apart . However on that note , my van is on the drive as we speak . It also happens the intercooler is currently off , to improve access to the power steering which i'm overhauling , so if you need , i can take a look . Oh and on a point of note , it is a left hand drive .
Finally , you will also need the feed tube from the manifold to the turbo .

Is it worth while , well only you can decide . Cost would be a factor if the parts were new , but using donor parts , should save you immensely . Extra performance , well yes there is a slight gain , but the brutal truth is , i think it's only around 2, maybe 3 bhp . This would only be applicable for hill climbing , and pulling away from a dead stop . My unit is fitted in a 6m coachbuilt motorhome , tipping a shade over 3 ton empty , 3.5 loaded on the scales . On the flat in 5th , i'm only pulling around 23 , 2400 rpm , with 0 , to 0.2 boost , at 90-95 kmph , so the turbo has little effect .

Please , don't forget i've also got an extra 300cc .

 

[Cyberkul]

Thanks for your long answer 2-3 bhp doesn't sound like much, I thought about 20 bhp were possible? I'll take a thorough look at the donor car, if possible.

 

[Communicator]

The increase in torque is 10 Nm, at 2000 rpm, and the increase in power is 9 kW (13 hp) at 3800 rpm.

My references are here. Scroll down to see the two engines.

 

[airwave]

Thanks for your long answer 2-3 bhp doesn't sound like much, I thought about 20 bhp were possible? I'll take a thorough look at the donor car, if possible.

You may get a little more , but frankly if you get more than 5 , i will be most surprised . I'm afraid , i'm a little more sceptical than @Communicator . Those figures are impressive , but my question is how were they compiled .
Very basically a turbocharger is little more than a compressor , whose sole aim , is to force as much air as possible into the combustion circuit . As this air is compressed , it also tends to heat up due to friction , and the molecules bouncing together . However as this air becomes warm , it also becomes less dense , thinner if you like , similar to what many people would call a muggy day . But this is good , as it allows even more air to be compressed into the pool , in the case of the duke , to a maximum of 1 atmosphere (1 bar , or 15 psi . These converversion figures are rounded up) . Now if you cool that air down , it will become suddenly become very dense , and this is what an intercooler does . Incidentally , should the pressure exceed this 1 bar setting , it operates a safety valve in the circuit , to release that excess pressure . That safety valve is often referred to as the wastegate .
However intercoolers do have a design flaw , they are not filled , as a lot of people think , with water . The galleries are filled with the warm air , to which we force atmospheric air through , in much the same way as we do with a radiator . In effect we are cooling air , with air , but only to the ambient temperature of the surrounding air , minus 2 degrees . And this is where we can fudge the figures , by taking the measurements in cooler conditions than we expect to find normally . This is quite legal , as the figures have been achieved , you just don't tell the punters how you got them in the first place . Ever wondered why you can't get those mpg figures , the manufacturers shout about .

 

[Cyberkul]

Hmm.. 5 hp doesn't sound like it is worth while. I had a 3000km trip with the camper last summer, and most of the time it is ok. The tourist traffic is often a limitation anyway. But Norway is hilly, so sometimes I wish I had a little more than 95hp.

 

[airwave]

Norway is hilly, so sometimes I wish I had a little more than 95hp.

Oh wow , only 95 , now i can see why your looking for more power . I thought you were in Denmark (sorry i'm not that good with flags) . The truth is , i've never been to Norway , but even so , i still know it is a hilly country . It must be hard work , with the power you have .
I studied the power plants before i brought my van , and eventually choose a 2.8 tdi . It's not the most powerful , but being simple , it's a motor i can work on .
I'm not a professional mechanic , just a weekend spanner spinner . I had heard of intercoolers , but didn't actually know much about them (yes i will admit , i was one of those , who thought water was involved) . So as i had to disturb my installation , to complete some work i did recently . I interrogated a proper mechanic friend , and got genned up . I find it easier to work on stuff i know , or at least have a basic understanding of how it works . Incidentally , my engine only produces 122 hp , yet turns out to be quite a gutsey motor , and still has the ability to return over 30 miles to the gallon on the flat .

To my mind , 95 hp is nowhere near enough for Norwegian terrain . Personally speaking , i'm not sure i'd be looking at just an intercooler . It's more likely , i would be thinking along the lines of transplanting the entire engine , but this is in itself , a huge undertaking . Diesel engines are extremely difficult engines to , what i call , soup up (old American term) . Parts generally have to be , custom made , which of course makes it expensive , and a downside to hotting up any engine is both reliability , and economy suffer .
I have come across a thread somewhere , where a couple of owners were discussing increased turbo boost pressure . They appeared to be on standard vans , but had some favourable results . I think it may have been on this site , but it was quite a while ago , and it was a very old thread . Your not the first person to ask about souping an engine up , and frankly i doubt will be the last . Most want to fit a tuning box , not realising they have nothing to attach it to . At least you understand you don't have an ecu .

Been brutally honest , i think the most realistic option for you , to my mind , is to change the van . However , not every owner wants to do that , and i respect that , but a further problem here , is i'm not exactly sure that i would recommend even that option right now . Not in today's climate of environmental concerns .

 

[Cyberkul]

Oh wow , only 95 , now i can see why your looking for more power . I thought you were in Denmark (sorry i'm not that good with flags) . The truth is , i've never been to Norway , but even so , i still know it is a hilly country . It must be hard work , with the power you have .
I studied the power plants before i brought my van , and eventually choose a 2.8 tdi . It's not the most powerful , but being simple , it's a motor i can work on .
I'm not a professional mechanic , just a weekend spanner spinner . I had heard of intercoolers , but didn't actually know much about them (yes i will admit , i was one of those , who thought water was involved) . So as i had to disturb my installation , to complete some work i did recently . I interrogated a proper mechanic friend , and got genned up . I find it easier to work on stuff i know , or at least have a basic understanding of how it works . Incidentally , my engine only produces 122 hp , yet turns out to be quite a gutsey motor , and still has the ability to return over 30 miles to the gallon on the flat .

To my mind , 95 hp is nowhere near enough for Norwegian terrain . Personally speaking , i'm not sure i'd be looking at just an intercooler . It's more likely , i would be thinking along the lines of transplanting the entire engine , but this is in itself , a huge undertaking . Diesel engines are extremely difficult engines to , what i call , soup up (old American term) . Parts generally have to be , custom made , which of course makes it expensive , and a downside to hotting up any engine is both reliability , and economy suffer .
I have come across a thread somewhere , where a couple of owners were discussing increased turbo boost pressure . They appeared to be on standard vans , but had some favourable results . I think it may have been on this site , but it was quite a while ago , and it was a very old thread . Your not the first person to ask about souping an engine up , and frankly i doubt will be the last . Most want to fit a tuning box , not realising they have nothing to attach it to . At least you understand you don't have an ecu .

Been brutally honest , i think the most realistic option for you , to my mind , is to change the van . However , not every owner wants to do that , and i respect that , but a further problem here , is i'm not exactly sure that i would recommend even that option right now . Not in today's climate of environmental concerns .

There are some upsides too, it`s cheap to own, since insurance is cheap for vehicles more than 30 years, and it is actually not too bad on the road. Seats are better than I feared, and I`m not too tired after a days drive. Noise is bad, have to turn up the radio a lot.

Would a newer engine fit in this van? I guess there is alot more involved than just the engine..

 

[Cyberkul]

If any of you have a parts catalouge: I notice that the cooling hoses don`t look too good, I find new ones at Autodoc with OEN numbers: 7582725, upper hose and 9555522880 lower hose? It is difficult to judge by the pictures if they fit or not..

 

[airwave]

There are some upsides too, it`s cheap to own, since insurance is cheap for vehicles more than 30 years, and it is actually not too bad on the road. Seats are better than I feared, and I`m not too tired after a days drive. Noise is bad, have to turn up the radio a lot.

Would a newer engine fit in this van? I guess there is alot more involved than just the engine.

Yes , the seats are comfortable , it surprised me as well , heaters good as well . Both easily compete with my Citroen , but i do have to disagree about the noise , mine is pretty quiet . I can keep the radio volume down , mind you , that's if i even have the radio on in the first place , which ent that often . Considering mine is a left hooker , it's surprisingly easy to drive , i am used to large vehicles , just not lefties , i'm a trucker . You do have to watch the rear overhang , and i feel a kerb side mirror would be nice addition . Actually , i'm in the process of replacing my mirror arms , the lock out is shot on the ones i have . They fold in on their own .
Got cruise control , but it has a fault , and won't hold the speed for long . It's on the list for some attention , though i suspect it maybe beyond me . I'm pretty sure i know what the fault is , but if it needs any kind of calibration , i'm screwed . As i mentioned in my last post , my van is a 2.8 , producing 122hp . On the flat , i'm getting over 30 miles per gallon , though that does drop once you start gear jamming on hills . Mind you it is a gutsy little thing , often only have to drop to 4th , and that's only because i have the trouble some ME5 gearbox .
I replated mine to 3.7 ton , so i can carry a motorcycle on the back (got a tuck under bike rack) . The bike only weighs 76kg , capacity of the rack is 120 .

Now on the question of a newer engine , the honest truth is , i don't know . I'm not familiar with earlier models , despite one being the reason i embarked on the motorhome path in the first place . Basically the 2.8 , is a modified 2.5 in that it uses the same lower engine section . It's the upper half that's different , obviously it's being over bored by 300cc . So with that in mind , in theory the engine mounts should be in the same place , and so should fit . Firewall position would be my only concern , and would have a major effect . My engine is quite a tight fit in the engine bay , with the induction manifold rubbing shoulders with the bulkhead . Width wise not a problem . If you went for an idtd , there's no engine management to deal with . Exhaust , and fuel system , i'm pretty sure , are both the same layout , actually i'm not entirely sure , it ent the same floor pan . Now with that said , we have an interesting new development , because if that is the case , then surely that would also mean the fire wall is also in the same place . Frankly , i think there's a really good chance it will fit , just don't quote me on that
As i said last time , it is a huge undertaking , but it's certainly worth a look . I don't think you've actually mentioned your vehicle type , mine is a Hymer A class .

 

[Cyberkul]

It's a Frankia camper based on a Ducato 290. I get about 10km/l, which I find ok.