Technical FIRE to Hybrid, anybody..?

[varesecrazy]

We've had a few Twinair motors,
85 bhp and turbocharged

We've had a few FIRE motors too, 60 and 69 bhp

The FIRE in our 2018 500 is not inspiring, anybody gone from a 1242cc FIRE to a Firefly hybrid..?

We are looking at replacing our Twinair panda.. But are unsure of the Hybrid experience..

We are used to Torque low down.. Rather than BHP on top


Your experiences are very welcome

 

[The Panda Nut]

I have test driven this thing and I found it wholly uninspiring. However on my Italian trip we had a 1.2 and a Hybrid on hire and the hybrid matched the 1.2 all the way and in fact appeared faster. They do seem to feel different. My concern on the hybrids is the number of hybrid battery lockouts that are reported, though I wonder if that is due to lack of understanding of how to manage the car and its system. You need to try more than 1 I feel to ensure you really get a measure of the differences.

 

[AnthonyH]

I've not driven one, so all i have are my thoughts, and 15 minutes of research from Google AI.

Performance you're just getting another 1.2L Fire engine when you buy a 1.0 L Firefly. Thats what the BHP says.

The battery assisting the engine will last for just a few minutes before needing to be recharged- it'll be empty in no time. Its really not adding 20% to the mpg, but it will add something, i'm going to estimate it'll add 5%.

The emissions are lower, so if environmental concerns are important to you then its better.

 

[Mike1alike]

I've not driven one either and I wouldn't even get close to an electrical or hybrid. Bleah...!
Electric cars are the biggest scam in history, so far. More than 50% sourcing in obtaining electricity is from burning fossil fuels. Imagine!

 

[rmjbn1]

I hired a 500C 1.0 'mild hybrid' for a week.

It was ok, but felt gutless and needed working harder than our 60hp 169. Very little torque

Found it needed a boot full of revs to set off

On similar hilly rural driving I calculated fuel economy to be slightly worse than the old Panda

Also found the regen braking hard to predict, would cut in and out on a descent, find myself suddenly picking up speed again

I didn't hate it, just feels aimed at urban driving, for buzzing about the lanes I prefer the FIRE

 

[Panda IIs]

I've not driven one either and I wouldn't even get close to an electrical or hybrid. Bleah...!
Electric cars are the biggest scam in history, so far. More than 50% sourcing in obtaining electricity is from burning fossil fuels. Imagine!

That's a broad brush you use there. There are geographical considerations to be considered in your statement along with time of day for when you are charging - all I'm saying is the EV v's ICE debate is not that black and white. As for (non-plug in) Hybrids the argument regarding burning fossil fuels for electricity is totally irrelevant; they do, however, recover otherwise lost energy via regenerative braking which can't be all bad given the otherwise (still) appalling efficiency of ICE driven vehicles.

 

[boozyjay]

I had a Panda hybrid as a courtesy car last year. it was bloody awful.

Stick with the TA.

 

[Mike1alike]

That's a broad brush you use there. There are geographical considerations to be considered in your statement along with time of day for when you are charging - all I'm saying is the EV v's ICE debate is not that black and white. As for (non-plug in) Hybrids the argument regarding burning fossil fuels for electricity is totally irrelevant; they do, however, recover otherwise lost energy via regenerative braking which can't be all bad given the otherwise (still) appalling efficiency of ICE driven vehicles.

I get what you're saying but I still feel the same about them.
And recovering energy might be good. It's great when it's working, but it's a nightmare when it isn't working and you can't use your car because of it.

 

[Panda IIs]

I get what you're saying but I still feel the same about them.
And recovering energy might be good. It's great when it's working, but it's a nightmare when it isn't working and you can't use your car because of it.

It's a personal choice I get that but the for and against (electrification) lobbies are extremely polarised and the arguments are not that straight forward. I agree with you about the reliability aspects, especially for the "Mild hybrid" solutions which are an incremental development along the way to reduced emissions and infiltrating market perceptions. As with most cars (ICE at least) they benefit from regular use, but also appropriate maintenance.

 

[Mike1alike]

That is very much so. And then there comes the little detail of costs for maintenance in the one and the other. And it's ludacris how high it is for the other.
I think that if everything would have been free of charge, the world would look completely different.
It's like the paths made in a park. If there's a park and people and animals have access to it, they "create" (by walking) useful paths with useful routes that get them through. If they build the paths it's usually the most idiotic routes.

 

[rmjbn1]

Performance you're just getting another 1.2L Fire engine when you buy a 1.0 L Firefly. Thats what the BHP says.

Horsepower may be the same but torque isnt.
102Nm for 1.2 FIRE Vs 90Nm for 1.0 Firefly
And it makes a noticeable difference, engines are very different in character
Also max bhp is at 6000rpm for Firefly. At useful range 2000-4000rpm it produces less power than 1.2 FIRE so needs to be revved.

The battery assisting the engine will last for just a few minutes before needing to be recharged- it'll be empty in no time.

Not quite how it works. Battery adds assistance to the engine only under acceleration and then charges again (mostly under deceleration).
All through a belt starter generator.
So it's regularly charging and discharging small amounts, will never be fully charged or empty.

Its really not adding 20% to the mpg, but it will add something, i'm going to estimate it'll add 5%.

Did AI suggest 20% improvement in mpg?! Oh dear. 5% maybe under specific conditions (urban), but not what I found

The emissions are lower, so if environmental concerns are important to you then its better.

If you're prepared to believe their claims on emissions.
As above, might depend on how and where it's driven.

I suspect claimed emissions improvement might be due to extended stop/start cycle:
The car tells you to change into neutral when moving slowly off throttle, and shuts the engine.

Coasting with engine off towards a queue of cars or pedestrian crossing I found a bit disconcerting!
I wonder how many owners actually do so

 

[gazz_bee]

I've driven a 500 Mild Hybrid, coming from both the 69BHP 1242 FIRE and 85BHP Twinair. The Mild Hybrid definitely lacks torque so feels sluggish compared to the FIRE and positively glacial compared to the Twinair. To the extent that the Mild Hybrid is one of the reasons I've got a 500e.

To support PandaIIs post above, this is the live electricity generation in Scotland showing the balance between renewable and fossil fuel sources.

 

[Panda IIs]

I've driven a 500 Mild Hybrid, coming from both the 69BHP 1242 FIRE and 85BHP Twinair. The Mild Hybrid definitely lacks torque so feels sluggish compared to the FIRE and positively glacial compared to the Twinair. To the extent that the Mild Hybrid is one of the reasons I've got a 500e.

To support PandaIIs post above, this is the live electricity generation in Scotland showing the balance between renewable and fossil fuel sources.

View attachment 476423

Thanks @gazz_bee It was lazy of me not to include any kind of reference (not just a dodgy AI summary either!). My sister runs a 500e and has had great experience while enjoying minimal running costs - service and charging.

The ultimate (?) solution is perhaps PV with battery storage or grid feed-in and the car (if it can be home charging in daylight hours) as battery storage.

You are gifted in Scotland with a surplus of renewables until they get the North South grid connections sorted.

Also credit to this forum @ben a place where you can have a rational discussion almost enough to make me stick with Fiat! I do "have" to use other marque forum and believe me its not so easy going!

 

[Eltezz]

I had a Panda City Cross hybrid for a week and I couldn’t wait to give it back. Totally gutless and plain vanilla. The only reason for these cars is to hit emission targets. With the problems and cost associated with the hybrid battery and electronics I wouldn’t touch one.

Just my opinion…

 

[AnthonyH]

I've driven a 500 Mild Hybrid, coming from both the 69BHP 1242 FIRE and 85BHP Twinair. The Mild Hybrid definitely lacks torque so feels sluggish compared to the FIRE and positively glacial compared to the Twinair. To the extent that the Mild Hybrid is one of the reasons I've got a 500e.

To support PandaIIs post above, this is the live electricity generation in Scotland showing the balance between renewable and fossil fuel sources.

View attachment 476423

Thats a nice chart. In 20 years the whole UK won't have much fossil fuel power generation at all.

China has added more solar power generation just this year - Jan 2025 to Nov 2025 - than the entire output of solar generation in the USA.

 

[AnthonyH]

I had a Panda City Cross hybrid for a week and I couldn’t wait to give it back. Totally gutless and plain vanilla. The only reason for these cars is to hit emission targets. With the problems and cost associated with the hybrid battery and electronics I wouldn’t touch one.

Just my opinion…

I wouldn't buy a firefly either. They're just not worth it in my opinion.

I don't have any problem with the principle of electric cars in general, but this is as useful as a semi automatic gearbox, although hopefully more reliable!

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Just remember that, aside from the badge that says it is, the hybrid Panda isn’t really a hybrid in the sense most now understand. The mild hybrid system is basically a marginally altered stop/start… after stopping, the car is initially moved away from a standstill by the starter motor via a drive belt. But as soon as the engine fires, electrical assistance stops, as at that point the ‘motor’ becomes the alternator

This is very different to the original hybrid (the Prius, mostly) where it can be driven as an electric car until the battery is depleted, and before that, if you ask for more oomph the petrol and electric motors can work in tandem. And of course, the Pruis-type arrangement means the battery can be recharged from the petrol engine whilst driving.

Mild hybrid is a ‘sneaky concept’ where car makers have, in effect, exploited some poorly written legislation that left them a ‘get out’ that allows them to say xx% of there model range are ‘hybrids’.

One thing the Panda hybrid definitely isn’t is an EV. It cannot be driven (other than creeping a short way at less than 5mph) as an electrically powered car.

 

[AnthonyH]

Just remember that, aside from the badge that says it is, the hybrid Panda isn’t really a hybrid in the sense most now understand. The mild hybrid system is basically a marginally altered stop/start… after stopping, the car is initially moved away from a standstill by the starter motor via a drive belt. But as soon as the engine fires, electrical assistance stops.

This is very different to the original hybrid (the Prius, mostly) where it can be driven as an electric car until the battery is depleted, and before that, if you ask for more oomph the petrol and electric motors can work in tandem.

Mild hybrid is a ‘sneaky concept’ where cart makers have, in effect, exploited some poorly written legislation that left them a ‘get out’ that allows them to say xx% of there model range are ‘hybrids’.

One thing the Panda hybrid definitely isn’t is an EV. It cannot be driven (other than creeping a short way at less than 5mph) as an electrically powered car.

Agree the Panda hybrid shouldn't be called that.

 

[JTD_Liam]

My Parents (or rather my Mum, as Dad's not keen on it) have owned a 500c 1.0 FireFly Hybrid for 2 years. We owned a 500 (hatchback) TwinAir 85bhp for 3 years from new in 2012. I've driven both several times, plus my cousins 2016 500 1.2 FIRE.

Despite the figures, I find the FireFly Hybrid much smoother & a good chunk more economical than the 1.2. It's also more free-revving. Not as perky as the best of the FIRE engines like the 60bhp version in the previous shape Panda, but better than any 1.2 I've experienced in the 500 - the start-stop always works, it starts & stops without the jerking & noise of the system bolted on to the FIRE & the little battery can give a little extra shove for a short while, albeit it's a very mild hybrid.

Compared to the TwinAir i find the FireFly Hybrid pretty miserable though. The TwinAir (even in 85bp form) was wayyyyy faster, loved to rev & was at ease on the motorway, where it went eerily quiet. The FireFly Hybrid (as with the 1.2) needs thrashing to keep up where the TwinAir sailed past larger, more powerful cars.

We've had no problems with any of the engines & only a suspension component (on the 2012 TwinAir) on any of the 500s more widely (plus clutch on my cousins 2016 1.2) so I'd say to anyone whose considering a 500 to focus on choosing depending on your primary use. If you regularly go on the motorway, it's probably not the car for you, but if you really want one, get a well maintained TwinAir. If you mostly drive in town then the 1.2 FIRE or 1.0 FireFly will both be fine - the 1.2 is simpler, plus easier (and likely cheaper) to service, but the 1.0 is smoother (especially clutch action & start-stop) & more economical.

 

[AnthonyH]

Horsepower may be the same but torque isnt.
102Nm for 1.2 FIRE Vs 90Nm for 1.0 Firefly
And it makes a noticeable difference, engines are very different in character
Also max bhp is at 6000rpm for Firefly. At useful range 2000-4000rpm it produces less power than 1.2 FIRE so needs to be revved.

Ahh, so the 1.2 Fire has more go than the 1.0 Firefly, not a good sign for the Firefly.

Cant say i'd want to be up at 6,000 revs for long, my 1.2 and 1.4 Fire engines live at 3,000 to 3,500 revs and thats noise enough.

There is some scientific reason why 3 piston engines like the firefly 1.0L under perform, same goes for 1 piston motorbikes.