General Fiat ducato 2.8 2001 starting

[Ricky1964]

I generally wait until the end of the self test time, before cranking the engine. As my vehicle is a PVC and perhaps because it is rarely used in winter, I cannot remember the flame starter operating. For further info on flame starter operation see eLearn extract, but this does say wait until light goes out. Do be aware that the Motor Roam website is descibing an earlier relay controlled version of the system, installed on an 2.8idTD. The 2.8jtd version is controlled by the ECU.
On the x244, the existing cable between battery positive and starter solenoid is one piece 35 sq mm running under the intercooler and radiator. Not likely to suffer from corrosion, so little to be gained by running a parallel cable.
At this stage I would discount an injector problem. While typing another possibility has come to mind. Some early 2.8jtds suffered from bad alignment of the camshaft sensor. I think that packing washers were fitted a remedy. However I would have expected that particular fault to affect all starts, irrespective of engine temperatre.

Unfortunately you could have an injector with excessive leakoff. This would result in the pressure in the fuel rail being drained off overnight. The ECU needs a minimum pressure, subject to confirmation, of 200Bar, before injection is allowed. This would mean that the engine would need to turn over several times, before the required pressure is achieved. To eliminate you would need to carry out a leakoff test.

Picture from another thread by @arnelis .

Thanks again, do you want to buy a campervan ,only 39000 m

 

[Ricky1964]

Right last post for today,honest so if my glow light is out more or less straight away ,which normally is ,how long do I wait till crank, and how long do I wait if about 12 seconds,which it was for the first time the other very cold day, sorry I’m having a senior moment

 

[Communicator]

Sorry about the bold text. The computer gremlins seem to be at work. I had to cancel several sections, but obviously one escaped. Thanks for the offer, but better the devil you know....... Ours is lower mileage, and five years younger.

More gremlins prevented me from finishing my post.

To answer the waiting time query by quoting from eLearn
"Starting should not begin before the end of the pre-heating stage (indicated by the heater warning light going out) or else the preheating is interrupted."

The bold type above is mine, and intentional.

You are not allowed senior moments, as they are my privilege.

 

[Ricky1964]

Hi,me again! I had the RAC out the other day, still turning over 4/5 times and slow till it fires up, anyway they put a new earth lead on from battery (negative) to engine lifting eye, next day started great, better than all of our cars! I added another lead from battery to front crossmember and it was longer starting , taken off now, but still not as good as when RAC first done it.What’s going on ? I’m really pulling my hair out ,I know I should have left it but thought the more the better and now wondering what’s going on, I did read someone saying about the buzz bar was loose but I can’t even find it , this is my last chance or it’s got to go, many thanks ( once it’s started it’s great all day, instantly)

 

[Communicator]

Hi,me again! I had the RAC out the other day, still turning over 4/5 times and slow till it fires up, anyway they put a new earth lead on from battery (negative) to engine lifting eye, next day started great, better than all of our cars! I added another lead from battery to front crossmember and it was longer starting , taken off now, but still not as good as when RAC first done it.What’s going on ? I’m really pulling my hair out ,I know I should have left it but thought the more the better and now wondering what’s going on, I did read someone saying about the buzz bar was loose but I can’t even find it , this is my last chance or it’s got to go, many thanks ( once it’s started it’s great all day, instantly)

Have you carried out the leakoff test as suggested.? An altrnative would be to monitor the rail pressure using Multiecuscan software on a Windows computer.
Another reason for reluctant starting is a failing camshaft sensor, but I would expect that to affect warm starts perhaps even more.

On another forum, a poster complained about slow cranking on a Peugeot 2.8HDi, which is the same engine. He was pleased with the results when the starter was changed.

The loose bus bar, was probably a reference to the battery fuseboard clamp at the battery positive post. It is clamped by an M6 bolt (10mm spanner). For safety, do not apply spanner before first removing the battery negative connection.

 

[Ricky1964]

Have you carried out the leakoff test as suggested.? An altrnative would be to monitor the rail pressure using Multiecuscan software on a Windows computer.
Another reason for reluctant starting is a failing camshaft sensor, but I would expect that to affect warm starts perhaps even more.

On another forum, a poster complained about slow cranking on a Peugeot 2.8HDi, which is the same engine. He was pleased with the results when the starter was changed.

The loose bus bar, was probably a reference to the battery fuseboard clamp at the battery positive post. It is clamped by an M6 bolt (10mm spanner). For safety, do not apply spanner before first removing the battery negative connection.

Thanks again for replying,no I didn’t do the leak off test,not confident enough,I thought it was solved when then extra earth lead was added,it started great next morning,I should have left itbut I added another one to front cross beam in front of radiator,then it took longer turning but seemed fast,I’ve now taken the second one off ,the other thing is I still can’t work out how long to wait the glow plug light is out after 1 second so how long till I turn the key ,many thanks,the second longer video was what it was like originally

 

[Communicator]

The main negative cable on the x244, drops down to the main chassis earth, just forward of the RHS engine mounting. A flag terminal is used at this point for the chassis earth. The cable continues under the intercooler/radiator to connect to an extended starter motor stud at the clutch housing.
Corrosion problems are rare, but it has been reported as occuring inside the flag terminal. Connecting a second earth lead as RAC technician did, to the engine lifting lug, would bypass any corrosion. Adding a second earth connection to the chassis would have negligible effect upon the starter motor performance.

The leak off test was suggested as a least expensive approach to pinpointing any possible injector problem. A more expensive approach to confirming low rail pressure would be to use multiecuscan on a Windows computer with connecting lead. I would expect that approach to be considerably more expensive, and if low rail pressure was confirmed, you would still need to locate the cause.

As regards the glowplug light, the 2.8jtd starts at ambient temperatures as low as 0C without invoking the flame starter. As previously stated it is good practice to wait until the warning lights go out after the self check phase. You should not need to wait longer unless the "glowplug" light is still illuminated.

 

[Ricky1964]

The main negative cable on the x244, drops down to the main chassis earth, just forward of the RHS engine mounting. A flag terminal is used at this point for the chassis earth. The cable continues under the intercooler/radiator to connect to an extended starter motor stud at the clutch housing.
Corrosion problems are rare, but it has been reported as occuring inside the flag terminal. Connecting a second earth lead as RAC technician did, to the engine lifting lug, would bypass any corrosion. Adding a second earth connection to the chassis would have negligible effect upon the starter motor performance.

The leak off test was suggested as a least expensive approach to pinpointing any possible injector problem. A more expensive approach to confirming low rail pressure would be to use multiecuscan on a Windows computer with connecting lead. I would expect that approach to be considerably more expensive, and if low rail pressure was confirmed, you would still need to locate the cause.

As regards the glowplug light, the 2.8jtd starts at ambient temperatures as low as 0C without invoking the flame starter. As previously stated it is good practice to wait until the warning lights go out after the self check phase. You should not need to wait longer unless the "glowplug" light is still illuminated.

Thanks again,yes your right about the route of the lead , it seems to lead to back of starter,it’s going in again Tuesday but would have been started so will start instantly.Has the leak of test got to be done first thing? And the starting lights still confused, the glow plug light is out straight away, so do I start straight away, or wait like I have been for about 10/12 seconds, sorry for all the questions, I did ring and auto electrician and he said straight away starter motor without looking £300

 

[Communicator]

The leak off test needs to be carried out with engine running. You will need to remove the engine cover which is not the simplest task, as it has a projection which hooks under the injector leeds at vehicle LHS. Need to remove lifting lug, and cut cable tie. Take care when removing leak back connections from injectors.. To start, turn key on, wait until warning lights except battery, and oil go out. Start. The most expensive starter that I can find on Ebay is a Bosch at £154.66.
I have had my starter off several times when changing cambelt etc. I did read of an MH owner, who dissatisfied with breakdown companies quote, removed starter on site, took it into town by bus, had it repaired, returned to site, and refitted.
If attempting this task, it is essential to disconnect the battery negative first..

 

[Ricky1964]

The leak off test needs to be carried out with engine running. You will need to remove the engine cover which is not the simplest task, as it has a projection which hooks under the injector leeds at vehicle LHS. Need to remove lifting lug, and cut cable tie. Take care when removing leak back connections from injectors.. To start, turn key on, wait until warning lights except battery, and oil go out. Start. The most expensive starter that I can find on Ebay is a Bosch at £154.66.
I have had my starter off several times when changing cambelt etc. I did read of an MH owner, who dissatisfied with breakdown companies quote, removed starter on site, took it into town by bus, had it repaired, returned to site, and refitted.
If attempting this task, it is essential to disconnect the battery negative first..

Thanks again for reply, I don’t really know what the garage is going to say, when I look back this has been going on for a couple of years, I might bite the bullet and go for the starter motor, a local motor supplies company have the Bosch starter ( higher output than the others on this model) for £185 plus fitting will let you know,thanks