Technical fiat 500 dualogic multiple failures

[ahmett]

Of course! In traffic I am in auto mode changing before 2000 rpm. But at 4 am driving home through the roads on the hills after clubbing (don't worry I barely drink I don't really like alcohol, I prefer driving over alcohol anyday) I can push the car as I please on deserted roads I am very familiar with, and going up steep hills you need the power = ) I don't pass lets say rev limiter in 3rd gear which happens I think around 80mph (don't remember exactly). Oh and I love the downshifts into the red line!

 

[306maxi]

I don't really agree with you here. The way an engine feels depends upon a number of factors, and there are plenty of turbocharged engines that are high revving screamers, equally many natasp engines that are low revving sluggers.

You're talking about the relative merits of an engine that's reasonably 'cammy' and set up to have quite a high torque peak (the 1.4 16v unit), vs an engine that's tuned for a relatively low torque peak with a noticable 'urge' at this point.

There's no 'standard definition' of what a turbo engine should feel like vs. a natasp one - you're just going on how FIAT has tuned a couple of their motors..

Exactly. Our Legacy Turbo loves to scream and revs higher than our 500 which happily goes along at low revs

 

[ahmett]

By the way serious question now, I have not been able to answer it myself. With the dualogic box is it better to let go of the throttle whnen moving the gear-lever to change gears or just keep the throttle position normally and let the electronics do it.

I personally let go of the gas a bit when changing gears it makes it a smoother shift and I noticed Ferrari racing drivers doing this when testing Ferrari's version of the dualogic box on the FXX.

 

[bgunn]

By the way serious question now, I have not been able to answer it myself. With the dualogic box is it better to let go of the throttle whnen moving the gear-lever to change gears or just keep the throttle position normally and let the electronics do it.

I personally let go of the gas a bit when changing gears it makes it a smoother shift and I noticed Ferrari racing drivers doing this when testing Ferrari's version of the dualogic box on the FXX.

In terms of longevity, it makes no odds, the gearbox control is instructing the engine management to shut the throttle whilst the gearchange is made, whatever your foot is doing. But if you feel the change is smoother by 'helping it along', then do so.

 

[ahmett]

In terms of longevity, it makes no odds, the gearbox control is instructing the engine management to shut the throttle whilst the gearchange is made, whatever your foot is doing. But if you feel the change is smoother by 'helping it along', then do so.

haha I very rarely drive in sport mode, when you are gunning the throttle in auto and sport mode the gear shifts are harsh enough to make me fear the gearbox is being broken.

the main reason I dislike sport mode is because if you just touch the throttle a bit the settings cause it to go 80% of throttle which makes the car nervous mid corner. The normal mode is much more stable in that regard, and I can live with the 'city mode' steering below around 50 mph.

 

[jrkitching]

Oh and I love the downshifts into the red line!

That is the sort of treatment that can cause the kind of instant catastrophic failure that bgunn was alluding to . Not even the limiter will protect you against that sort of abuse - but I'm slightly surprised that a dualogic (which presumably has some sort of control logic between what you do with the lever and what happens inside the box) will actually let you do this.

Please try to be a little bit restrained, Ahmett - we all love you really & would hate to think of you waking up to a bill for thousands of euros after one of your enthusiastic post-clubbing experiences.

 

[ahmett]

That is the sort of treatment that can cause the kind of instant catastrophic failure that bgunn was alluding to . Not even the limiter will protect you against that sort of abuse - but I'm slightly surprised that a dualogic (which presumably has some sort of control logic between what you do with the lever and what happens inside the box) will actually let you do this.

Please try to be a little bit restrained, Ahmett - we all love you really & would hate to think of you waking up to a bill for thousands of euros after one of your enthusiastic post-clubbing experiences.

it does. it doesn't let you shift into the limiter. on the 1.4 the red line is above 6000 rpm but fuel cutoff is not until 7250 so the dualllogic lets you downshift until 6500 ish.

so useful system I guess the dualogic, doesn't let you break the car!

the 'red line' on the dashboard is the same on all petrol fiat models, I think they did this to save money on making dashboards, a one type fits all category! It is completely wrong as the 1.4 goes 10% higher than the red line before running out of steam, while the ta actually has fuel cutoff at 6000 rpm!!! so sorry if I didn't make that clear, I don't downshift into the rev limiter (dualogic doesn't let you), I downshift into the red line. (not always of course)

 

[bgunn]

it does. it doesn't let you shift into the limiter. on the 1.4 the red line is above 6000 rpm but fuel cutoff is not until 7250 so the dualllogic lets you downshift until 6500 ish.

so useful system I guess the dualogic, doesn't let you break the car!

Yeah, it does have that benefit over a manual where there's nothing stopping you slamming a car into third, say, when driving hard in fourth. Apart from it being unbelievably dumb

 

[bgunn]

while the ta actually has fuel cutoff at 6000 rpm!!!

This was my point before, and is common to a lot of people who are not used to a twin cylinder engine. There's only one power pulse per 360 degree rotation of the crank (instead of one every 180 degrees with a four cylinder), so they sound very different and your natural judgement of 'christ, this engine is working hard' actually needs recalibrating somewhat. The TA does all it needs to do to drive the car quickly if you ask it to in the rev range available, it just seems 'strange' to those used to different motors.

 

[ahmett]

Yeah, it does have that benefit over a manual where there's nothing stopping you slamming a car into third, say, when driving hard in fourth. Apart from it being unbelievably dumb

To go over the 'dumbness' in auto mode I have to play with the throttle accordingly to make it change gears when I want. It really does annoy my when it changes gears very early in 1st gear when at like 50% throttle, thus not suiting the 1.4's engine characteristics at all. So sometimes when pottering around traffic I am actually left behind by the traffic flow in auto and partial throttle as the car is so slow at 2000 rpm and 2nd gear!!! And if you go harder on the throttle, it suddenly goes too aggressive and kicks down like no other, forcing my passengers to say what are you trying to do you crazy driver!

 

[jrkitching]

Yeah, it does have that benefit over a manual where there's nothing stopping you slamming a car into third, say, when driving hard in fourth. Apart from it being unbelievably dumb

Doing it deliberately is indeed unbelievably dumb. But I've known folks do exactly that by mistake, hitting third when looking for 5th.

Of course, those of us who change 4th>5th below 2000 rpm have a little more margin for error...

 

[ahmett]

I've known folks do exactly that by mistake, hitting third when looking for 5th.

Of course, those of us who change 4th>5th below 2000 rpm have a little more margin for error...

haha touché!

 

[bgunn]

To go over the 'dumbness' in auto mode I have to play with the throttle accordingly to make it change gears when I want. It really does annoy my when it changes gears very early in 1st gear when at like 50% throttle, thus not suiting the 1.4's engine characteristics at all. So sometimes when pottering around traffic I am actually left behind by the traffic flow in auto and partial throttle as the car is so slow at 2000 rpm and 2nd gear!!! And if you go harder on the throttle, it suddenly goes too aggressive and kicks down like no other, forcing my passengers to say what are you trying to do you crazy driver!

Which is why I'd never buy a flappy paddle gearbox, without the flappy paddles! And even then, there's something joyous about executing a seamless gearchange by using one's feet and left hand working in perfect unison, timing the 'dip' in throttle, declutching, and slotting in the gear before engaging drive smoothly but quickly and getting on the throttle as quickly as possible.

 

[jrkitching]

It really does annoy my when it changes gears very early in 1st gear when at like 50% throttle, thus not suiting the 1.4's engine characteristics at all. So sometimes when pottering around traffic I am actually left behind by the traffic flow in auto and partial throttle as the car is so slow at 2000 rpm and 2nd gear!!! And if you go harder on the throttle, it suddenly goes too aggressive and kicks down like no other, forcing my passengers to say what are you trying to do you crazy driver!

Yes, I'd have thought the dualogic was better suited to the 1.2 engine and a more, er, shall we say, 'relaxed' driving style. I've never really understood the rationale behind coupling an auto box with a high performance engine in a small car.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Rubbish, 1.2 Dulogics get you nowhere, great if you live central London and never need to get above 30mph, but not fun when joint a motorway or dual carrageway

They tend not to be very smooth drivers also from experience.

Not driven a Dualogic 1.4, but have a manual 1.4, and my Dualogic 120bhp Diesel Dualogic, and the bigger engines certainly make the journeys more pleasant. I ocassionally like to plant my foot like Ahmett, but normally drive for economy.

In terms of longevity, it makes no odds, the gearbox control is instructing the engine management to shut the throttle whilst the gearchange is made, whatever your foot is doing. But if you feel the change is smoother by 'helping it along', then do so.

:yeahthat:

Your 500 have Eco mode on the gear selector console also out of interest Ahmett

 

[ahmett]

Rubbish, 1.2 Dulogics get you nowhere, great if you live central London and never need to get above 30mph, but not fun when joint a motorway or dual carrageway

They tend not to be very smooth drivers also from experience.

Not driven a Dualogic 1.4, but have a manual 1.4, and my Dualogic 120bhp Diesel Dualogic, and the bigger engines certainly make the journeys more pleasant. I ocassionally like to plant my foot like Ahmett, but normally drive for economy.



:yeahthat:

Your 500 have Eco mode on the gear selector console also out of interest Ahmett

No eco button on 1.4, only 1.2

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

No eco button on 1.4, only 1.2

So is there no button there at all then

I assume the sport button to which you refer is the one which replaces the City steering button on the none Sports

 

[bgunn]

So is there no button there at all then

I assume the sport button to which you refer is the one which replaces the City steering button on the none Sports

1.4 gets a 'sport' button which also reduces the steering assistance. TAs get an 'eco' which is like the 1.2's 'City' mode in that the steering goes eerily light, but it also softens the map on the engine. 1.2 button is just a 'steering in ice' mode.

 

[ahmett]

So is there no button there at all then

I assume the sport button to which you refer is the one which replaces the City steering button on the none Sports

Yes exactly no button at all.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

1.4 gets a 'sport' button which also reduces the steering assistance. TAs get an 'eco' which is like the 1.2's 'City' mode in that the steering goes eerily light, but it also softens the map on the engine. 1.2 button is just a 'steering in ice' mode.

Yes. On the manuals, but I didn't know if the dualogics were different as in the Panda and Bravo you have the City steering button, but then an Eco mode just for gearbox control. Sounds like on the 500 Dualogic it's all into one though.