Technical Fiat 500 1.2 2009 Jumps out of first gear some times

[vinnychoff]

Hello I hope you can help me with some ideas or checks with my daughters car. She mentioned that it jumped out of gear and cut out. I jumped in and drove it around the block with no problems. It seems to drive okay. I can hear a knocking noise like a gearbox mount. It seems to go in gear and change okay. Then we went out for a drive and I was passenger, we drove and then it jumped out of gear when slowing down in still in first gear going down a hill.

I managed to find some mention jumping out of 5th gear with a search but not first?
They mention to check the cables and the top pinion shaft of the gearbox?

I wonder if you have any ideas?
I guess check and adjust the gear cables to the gearbox?
I was going to check gear box oil?

thanks in advance Vincenzo

 

[John202020]

Check the engine mounts(gearbox bolted to engine no mounts of its own)
Check the dog bone mount underneath
Check the cables to gearbox
Check the gears select properly with the engine off.
Check the general "feel" of the clutch pedal, does it feel correct and return to the correct point, also check the slave cylinder returns to its full resting position.
Does it jump out of gear under power or deceleration or both?

 

[steveras57]

Cable adjustment would be my best guess! however if you dont know EXACTLY what your doing then i would advise against"having a go" at sorting it yourself it is very very likely that rather than curing you current issue you will make things worse! if you eliminate everything else inc the clutch action and feel it is the cable adjustment than the cost of getting it done at a garage outweighs the chance of causing more damage or making the car undriveable!.
hope you sort it! let us know what happens!

 

[steveras57]

Sorry forgot to add! if in doubt change the gearbox oil as well! might as well whilst your checking the other stuff!

 

[John202020]

Cable adjustment would be my best guess!

IS there, any adjustment? Never seen anything ?

 

[vinnychoff]

thanks everyone. just about to try some checks.
I have the car in the garage and will look at those, thanks.

I started off life as a motorcycle mechanic so have some aptitude. It did jump out on slowing down in gear when i was in the car.
I did wonder if the cables are selecting first or that my daughter is gentler putting it in first. Also if the cable is stretched or out of adjustment. I am not sure if you can adjust them. I thought they were just replaced. As this was pulling off, the time it jumped out, again it was going into first and pulling past a junction.

thanks for your help so far.

 

[steveras57]

Threaded adjusters just behind the green caps that fit on top of the gearbox capacity to change the pre-tension and travel of the cable inner!

 

[vinnychoff]

Thanks all for your help.

I think its the clutch. or the slave
as the pedal travel is not always constant.

I went to move into the garage thinking the gear cable adjusters although i put it in gear okay. the travel to all gears seems okay.
sometimes it will not go in gear but then lifting the clutch and then pushing down again helps. this makes it graunch though.
there are times when the pedal just comes off the floor, other times when it is at the top middle. It seems to be the issue.
One time trying to put it in first, i went to move and it stopped altogether. I tried reverse and no change. it seemed to be locked? would not move on right hand lock. Waited a few seconds and it resumed.
I tried many times going forward and reverse looking at the pedal travel. It does seem to be the issue as it can be just off the floor. this would make it hard to go in gear fully? I guess and jump out.
I went out and test drove up a hill, but the clutch seems to bite okay. i could hold the car and pull away.

Do these 1.2 have a plastic slave cylinder?
Its done about 82 thousand miles.

 

[John202020]

What age?
Clutch hydraulics known to fail or give all sorts of gear selection issues
Honestly replace both slave and master cylinders if suspect also check the connector under the passenger wing on the chassis rail, if the connector is bust a repair kit is available it's possible to replace slave and master using the old pipe, won't be cheap and parts supply can be an issue, for simple common parts

 

[bugsymike]

If it goes into gear properly and drives under load, but comes out of gear on the over run, to me that suggests a gearbox fault.
So if you pull away in first gear fine for a short distance under load with foot off the clutch , but then say take your foot off the accelerator and then put it on again and it jumps out of gear, to me that would point to a gearbox fault.
If the bottom dog bone gearbox mounting is badly worn it will not help, but as cables gear selection rather than rods I don't think that is the answer.

 

[John202020]

If it goes into gear properly and drives under load, but comes out of gear on the over run, to me that suggests a gearbox fault.
So if you pull away in first gear fine for a short distance under load with foot off the clutch , but then say take your foot off the accelerator and then put it on again and it jumps out of gear, to me that would point to a gearbox fault.
If the bottom dog bone gearbox mounting is badly worn it will not help, but as cables gear selection rather than rods I don't think that is the answer.

Have to concur, any gearbox jumping out of gear suggests a internal fault?

Does it only do it in certain gears?

 

[steveras57]

If the internal gear dog(s) are worn then the gear(s) wont mesh properly and lock into place!- thus under negative load have the potential to "pop out" I would suggest if you have not done it already that you drop the gearbox oil straight away and check for debris and any metal pieces! if you find any its not good is it!

 

[vinnychoff]

2009.
Thanks, I have bled the slave cylinder with new fluid.
Thanks thats next then, I will drain the gearbox oil tomorrow evening if the car shows any further signs.
today when my daughter is prressing the clutch down. I can feel the slave cylinder moving but at the last stage it is very slow. so on a 100 per cent travel the last 25 percent is slow moving in comparison to the rest. It does not show any sign of stopping. I will ask and see if this issue happens when warm or cold.

thanks again everyone for your help and input.
Vincenzo and Amy says thanks too

 

[vinnychoff]

I now know what the fault is with the car. I am afraid I had to have it towed home today. The gearbox has failed. I was pulling away in first when the car locked up. I could not change gears or move. I had to call the AA who came out. Looking online it seems to be a common problem with the gearbox that the layshaft bearings go. I guess this would explain the gearbox in drive all the time. I cant move it forward or reverse. I can select gears and the selector moves. The clutch slave moves so the clutch is operational. as soon as i release the clutch it cuts out.

Its not a job i am keen on? I think it might be too much for a home fix.
Are there good fiat garages local that will repair the gearbox or fit a decent recon gearbox and clutch?

regards Vincenzo

 

[bugsymike]

Sadly this is what I and others suspected with the jumping out of gears before it finally locked in earlier replies.
In the past many garages and myself included would have stripped the gearbox and fitted the parts required, supplied at a sensible price from the Dealers. As you probably would have done with motorcycles as a mechanic on them.
Unfortunately that seems to no longer be the case, with the cost of the parts and labour charges these days.
I stopped recommending companies that did "recon " gearboxes many years ago, as so many repaired the old box with S/H parts stripped from other gearboxes to make a short term profit with an even shorter warranty!
If able to get a cheap, good low mileage complete gearbox I have gone that route in the past, but for a 15 year old vehicle you have to weigh up the viability.
Maybe other Forum Members can suggest an alternative solution.

 

[John202020]

I'd say £750 to replace with new clutch
If you get 2 more years from the car that's only about £30 a month, that's cheap motoring ultimately, provided you think the rest of the car is serviceable then it's still a worthwhile fix, if you look at the second hand market the costs are nuts for used cars

 

[bugsymike]

I'd say £750 to replace with new clutch
If you get 2 more years from the car that's only about £30 a month, that's cheap motoring ultimately, provided you think the rest of the car is serviceable then it's still a worthwhile fix, if you look at the second hand market the costs are nuts for used cars

Sounds viable at that price if good job.
Only thought, OP is in London area and I doubt many garages around there would get out of bed for the profit in £750 job. I have a sister living there.

 

[steveras57]

If you work on the assumption off around £450 quid for a 2nd hand gearbox from a DECENT supplier such as club 500 italia add in upwards of £100 for a clutch kit and then a minimum of 4 hours garage time at say £85 per hour at a decent independent ) then your at around £900! the rest of the car needs to be in known good shape and able to run reliably for at least another two years if not three to make economic sense! guess it depends on how much you want to keep the car and if you could afford to replace it if it came to that?.
good luck with sorting it!.

 

[vinnychoff]

Thanks
Yes I do think it is worth keeping it on the road. I have spent money on servicing in the past. I did miss out on gearbox oil.
Just in the process of looking around to see if anyone does specialise in these 1.2 fiat 500 gearbox.
I will try those mentioned

 

[steveras57]

Club 500 Italia has one for a 1.2 at £449.50 at present with a 12 month warranty! on it