Technical Failing water pumps in Panda (4 in a year)

[RFollia]

Dear all.
Owning since 2018 Panda Dynamic (early build, ZFA 169000000under 4000 frame no). When bought changed belt and water pump (INA kit fitted)
Fast forward to summer 2022. 24K miles (40K kms) and 4 years later, belt broke. Pump had been leaking but thought it was a hose. By luck the 188A4000 engine is fail-safe when it comes to cambelt breakage. Failing pump had been leaking onto belt and coolant weakened it.
New pump and kit fitted July 2022 (Gates brand). Started leaking last february (less than 6k miles and 7 months). The pump spindle was "eaten" by the seal (deeply scored)
Changed under warranty. SKF kit fitted. Started leaking last week (just lasted 1 month),
There is no pressurising in system. No HG problems. Plugs are ok (typical coffee colour).
My question is: SHould I get a genuine one from a Fiat dealer instead?
Anyone of you has suffered these repeated failures?
Any trusted water pump make to get?
A stroke of bad luck or just substandard parts manufactured under lockdown?
Or is the workshop doing something wrong? (I mean bleeding circuit badly and turning the pump with no lubrication from coolant)
Would have fitted by myself the 3rd time but as it's under warranty, it's their task to put things right.
Any input greatly appreciated as this breaks the record of substandard parts during my land rover ownership (blue box parts...you know...)
Best regards from sunny Spain
Robert

 

[koalar]

Let's start at the begining

The water pumps rarely fail if fitted correct

I have had two cars reach nearly and over 200,000 miles on the original pumps


First things first would be to check if the correct parts have been fitted

Two different belts were fitted the crossover is engine number 2533528

 

[irc]

Dear all.
Owning since 2018 Panda Dynamic (early build, ZFA 169000000under 4000 frame no). When bought changed belt and water pump (INA kit fitted)
Fast forward to summer 2022. 24K miles (40K kms) and 4 years later, belt broke. Pump had been leaking but thought it was a hose. By luck the 188A4000 engine is fail-safe when it comes to cambelt breakage. Failing pump had been leaking onto belt and coolant weakened it.
New pump and kit fitted July 2022 (Gates brand). Started leaking last february (less than 6k miles and 7 months). The pump spindle was "eaten" by the seal (deeply scored)
Changed under warranty. SKF kit fitted. Started leaking last week (just lasted 1 month),
There is no pressurising in system. No HG problems. Plugs are ok (typical coffee colour).
My question is: SHould I get a genuine one from a Fiat dealer instead?
Anyone of you has suffered these repeated failures?
Any trusted water pump make to get?
A stroke of bad luck or just substandard parts manufactured under lockdown?
Or is the workshop doing something wrong? (I mean bleeding circuit badly and turning the pump with no lubrication from coolant)
Would have fitted by myself the 3rd time but as it's under warranty, it's their task to put things right.
Any input greatly appreciated as this breaks the record of substandard parts during my land rover ownership (blue box parts...you know...)
Best regards from sunny Spain
Robert

Assuming 2018 is a typo...
"Owning since 2018 Panda Dynamic (early build, ZFA 169000000 under 4000"
Presumably makes it a 2003/2004.
If so, well before the engine update (2005) when the pulleys, belt & Water Pump changed.
(Although I have seen a 2004 Panda which had an engine sqap to the updated version which caused endless confusion. Check engine number on block, not registration documents!)
I have seen premature water pump failure from incorrectly tensioned belt, but not multiple times.

SKF unlikely to be faulty IF genuine.

Is it possible damage was done to the pulley when belt failed?

EDIT: Apologies to @koalar - started the reply then answered the phone...

 

[RFollia]

Hi,
it's not a typo, Was bought 2nd hand from original owner in 2018.
Engine is 1st type (pre-modif), hope they ordered the correct complete kit belt+pump.
Engine number is in a bar code on the upper part of engine block, as per Land Rover made by ford engines?
Best regards

 

[irc]

Hi,
it's not a typo, Was bought 2nd hand from original owner in 2018.
Engine is 1st type (pre-modif), hope they ordered the correct complete kit belt+pump.
Engine number is in a bar code on the upper part of engine block, as per Land Rover made by ford engines?
Best regards

Read that line wrong... Old age, I guess.
Engine number is etched on block casting near the cam pulley end. Can be very hard to read.

 

[vexorg]

Gates is also a very well trusted brand for timing belt and kit.
Either wrong parts, incorrectly fitted, or some very obscure problem with your engine (is camshaft free to turn?)

 

[varesecrazy]

Its a fixed bearing for a belt tensioner..

I wonder if they are over tensioning the belt?

Of the belt run..the waterpump is the lightest set of bearings

So will fail 1st as the 'weak link'

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Its a fixed bearing for a belt tensioner..

I wonder if they are over tensioning the belt?

Of the belt run..the waterpump is the lightest set of bearings

So will fail 1st as the 'weak link'

My thoughts too Charlie. Not a spring loaded auto tensioner so could easily be tensioned incorrectly. Most modern vehicles have long used spring loaded tensioners so I think it's quite possible mechanics are getting out of practice with tensioning "fixed" tensioners.

 

[koalar]

Hi,
it's not a typo, Was bought 2nd hand from original owner in 2018.
Engine is 1st type (pre-modif), hope they ordered the correct complete kit belt+pump.
Engine number is in a bar code on the upper part of engine block, as per Land Rover made by ford engines?
Best regards

No

Look from the front

Left hand side just under the exhaust manifold

Laser etched very faint

Should be under the aluminum heatsheild if still present

 

[RFollia]

Engine is 1818256
Well, according to EPER it's part (belt+tensor) 71736718. Cross reference with gates gives part number /k015545xs (But it is listed for all panda 1.2 models 03-12), which is something I would not like to read as the engine was changed around 2005.
The workshop had this kit (k015545xs) waiting to be fitted on Thu. Could anyone confirm this is the one that fits? (Gates say so but I don't trust them, it's a cross reference site)
Hope all goes well this time
Best regards

 

[koalar]

The profile of the belt teeth and widths are different you need the matching water pump as they are different for each belt type

KP15545XS is the part number including water pump.

 

[eeeno]

By the way did you hear noises from the belt area? Are you using the same garage to fit the belt for four times now? I would not trust on them anymore.
Luckily there was no engine damage so they can now learn how to install a timing belt on a basic Fiat.

If water pump seal was broken, it was probably turned dry too many times. On manuals they say to prime the pump with coolant. Not all instructions specifically mention this because coolant is added anyway in the next steps. Did they let the silicone sealant dry before adding coolant. Yikes.
There just are too many things that can go wrong apparently.

There are lots of resources online by Gates and many other manufacturers on troubleshooting timing belt issues. The pumps and the sets are probably all correct, one thing you should just change is the mechanic who does the job.

 

[RFollia]

I am pretty sure they primed the circuit "the spanish way"
I mean:
1.- Fit pump and belt.
2.- Start engine
3.- Fill coolant tank (mine is separate one as per diesel panda) but overfill it as "it will drop"
4.- Rev engine at 2000 rpm and Forget about everything until temperature gauge rises.
5.- Do not touch bleed nipples in case they break.
Allow to cool, re-check level and top-up if necessary

I guess this This is the case because the level dropped significantly the 1st day (all air locks gone).
So I guess in all cases the seal in all cases "ate" the pump spindle as in 2 defective ones it was deeply scored.
Of course I have to change the workshop, but as the repair is under warranty, they have to honor it.Hope this time they do it the right way
Best regards

 

[DaveMcT]

I fitted an SKF belt to our 1.2 tensioned with the correct two-prong tool and repeated when I found it was one tooth out. It's difficult to think how you could over-tension it.

 

[portland_bill]

A belt kit will come with the correct pump for the supplied belt, even if it is the wrong set for the engine. This is an early engine, so will use the square profile belt teeth. If the rounded profile belt is used, it will fight the crank and cam pulleys, and will strip teeth off the belt long before the pump fails. Therefore I think we can assume correct belt kits.

As said above, pump failure is rare, especially if replaced with each belt change.

Pumps have been from different sources. That rules out faulty components.
Pump failure could be from overtight belt, which is manually adjusted on this engine, so as said above, might need a different mechanic. I'll rephrase that. Might need a mechanic instead of a fitter.
Alternatively, failure could be from contamination. Does the cooling system contain old debris from neglect? Was the coolant clean when first changed in 2018, or dirty and very old? Might need a very thorough flush.

My bet is still on belt too tight.

 

[RFollia]

Hi there all. Update.
Today was the "great day": took panda to workshop and it turned out that::: pump was ok: leak came from behind; the bypass pipe seal. The pipe itself was looking quite the worse for wear so pipe and heater hoses will be renewed as well, including the purge outlet in heater hose as that one was seeping as well.
So far nothing to worry about belts. The SKF kit is a very well engineered one and I was worried it could be another bad one or faulty fitting. None of them
Thanks all for help and best regards
Robert

 

[DaveMcT]

The out of sight out of mind metal pipe is notorious (in UK) for rusting. But the hoses are likely to be fine.

The radiator hoses have clip connectors for fast fitting in the factory. They often get damaged when trying to disconnect so are better done by cutting the clamp and using a worm drive clip.

My water pump leaked from a core plug in it's casting. Sad because the belt had to be replaced along with new pump..

 

[eeeno]

Lucky for you it's their own fault for not diagnosing the issue properly. I thought it was more than impossible for a garage to get it wrong so many times.