Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

[Super Uwe]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Out of interest are Ford still using the 1.2 FIRE in the current KA's they're churning out? Have any of these with euro 6 compliance had issues do we know?

I think so MEP. Vospers are still featuring the 1.2 (69PS) engine in their offers for the KA, so you would guess so.

The same 1.2 unit is in the latest version of the Punto too, but I think there are so few people buying them new now that it's unlikely you'll see any people posting problems.

Nevertheless, I will link this thread on the Punto 2012 section and see if there are any recent 1.2 Punto buyers who are suffering from this problem.

 

[44sunsets]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

We're not going to turn the clock back on emissions; IMO Fiat needs a new modern eco engine to take over from the FIRE.

I remember ahmett suggested in another thread that FIAT might make a NA version of the TwinAir for this. I wonder what kind of power output this could achieve?

As for drawing more publicity to the Euro6 engine issues, has anyone tried contacting Honest John directly about this? He mentioned the thread on his site, but maybe if he could do some in-depth investigating and perhaps an article on this, FIAT and the wider public will start to pay attention

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

If there's been no problems with the EU6 Ka, FIAT could do a lot worse than repeating the suspension-from-the-ka thing with the engine.

 

[gazz_bee]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

The engine being used in other models was my immediate thought when the issue as first raised. For the past few months I have been lurking in some of the Ka and Ypsilon forums and can't find any similar issues being reported. These forums aren't as heavily trafficked as this one though.

By the way, in terms of emissions strategy, small direct injection petrol turbo engines may bring a whole world of problems with particulate filters when the last phase of EU6 is implemented in 2017.

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f8/deer12_bischof.pdf

 

[David Bliss]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I agree with brickfoot, it would be good to get an independent body involved. We did email Top Gear as they had given the Panda a good review, but didn't even get an acknowledgement. Another owner of an afflicted car told me he was going to write to Watchdog but I haven't heard any more about this.

At the moment my problem child Panda is sitting in my garage unused. If any independent body wants to try out the car while I still have it they are welcome to do so.

 

[UFI]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

TBy the way, in terms of emissions strategy, small direct injection petrol turbo engines may bring a whole world of problems with particulate filters when the last phase of EU6 is implemented in 2017.http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f8/deer12_bischof.pdf

I don't really see a problem, the GPF shouldn't clog as there aren't anywhere near as many particulates in the first place. They should easily be lifetime parts.

But it has to be said, if we're now limiting petrol particulates, diesels should really be banned outright. DPF or not, diesels are still putting out a lot of visible black smoke.

 

[gazz_bee]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I don't really see a problem, the GPF shouldn't clog as there aren't anywhere near as many particulates in the first place. They should easily be lifetime parts.

But it has to be said, if we're now limiting petrol particulates, diesels should really be banned outright. DPF or not, diesels are still putting out a lot of visible black smoke.

I take your point about petrol engines starting off from a lower particulate baseline. However, diesel particulate filters don't deal well with cold start, short journeys and GDI engines generate most particulates in the same situation so my take is the same potential issues is there.

Incidentally, the main reason that petrol particulates are being limited is that tested GDI engines currently exceed those emissions for dpf'd diesels. Older, MPI engines potentially generate less particulates than modern petrol engines!

 

[ahmett]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I remember ahmett suggested in another thread that FIAT might make a NA version of the TwinAir for this. I wonder what kind of power output this could achieve?

As for drawing more publicity to the Euro6 engine issues, has anyone tried contacting Honest John directly about this? He mentioned the thread on his site, but maybe if he could do some in-depth investigating and perhaps an article on this, FIAT and the wider public will start to pay attention

i think they have but not for the uk market so far. it has about 60 bhp

 

[MrDerv]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Here's an update, accidentally filled with 98-ron at the weekend, i'm normally used to diesel prices for my car, and didn't click that i was filling with super. Only put a tenner in, but later on driving home, the response seemed to improve. All this week when i've been out for a drive in it, it seems to accelerate a bit better (although pulling away with foot to the floor is only slightly improved), and has a bit more mid-top range grunt. It feels like a different car! I think i'll mention this to fiat when it goes in for inspection, i had to cancel the last visit due to work.

 

[UFI]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

y

I take your point about petrol engines starting off from a lower particulate baseline. However, diesel particulate filters don't deal well with cold start, short journeys and GDI engines generate most particulates in the same situation so my take is the same potential issues is there.

True, but with diesel engines spending so much time with the fuel injectors off getting the engine/ exhaust up to temp is a much bigger issue than it is with spark ignition engines. My TDI has been known to take over 10km for the water to reach 'normal', a petrol will be up to temp within 1-2km.

But I think Euro6+ is a giant conspiracy, to increase vehicle running costs (in terms of total ownership), to the point no one can afford a car. This is an easier way politically than raising fuel or road tax. Australia's a bit different though as only European cars are compliant with Euro standards, Japanese and third world diesels still don't have PDF's. Now if only the Japanese could make an interesting car...

 

[MrDerv]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Now if only the Japanese could make an interesting car...

They do, It's called Godzilla (or the GT-R to us)

 

[UFI]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

They do, It's called Godzilla (or the GT-R to us)

I have an R32

 

[Super Uwe]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Here's an update, accidentally filled with 98-ron at the weekend, i'm normally used to diesel prices for my car, and didn't click that i was filling with super. Only put a tenner in, but later on driving home, the response seemed to improve. All this week when i've been out for a drive in it, it seems to accelerate a bit better (although pulling away with foot to the floor is only slightly improved), and has a bit more mid-top range grunt. It feels like a different car! I think i'll mention this to fiat when it goes in for inspection, i had to cancel the last visit due to work.

Don't be surprised by the improved performance with premium unleaded.

My experience of using Shell V-Power or equivalent fuel in our old 1.2 500 and 1.2 Panda was fairly similar; the main benefit I saw was that both cars were a bit perkier "off the line" and accelerating through the gears up to around 30-40mph.

Possibly their consumption figures were a bit better, but I wouldn't say they were for certain.

Now I don't think for one second that premium unleaded will solve all the problems reported on this thread, but it can't do any harm, especially in the absence of any official fix.

 

[Jazzist]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I had to do a steepish hillstart in my TA 500L earlier, thought to myself thank fcuk I'm not in the 1.2 500, the TA has about 1000000x more torque (very scientific ) at idle revs. The change in fuel won't help the fault

 

[gazz_bee]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

True, but with diesel engines spending so much time with the fuel injectors off getting the engine/ exhaust up to temp is a much bigger issue than it is with spark ignition engines. My TDI has been known to take over 10km for the water to reach 'normal', a petrol will be up to temp within 1-2km.

I'd forgotten you are in toasty Australia. It was a crisp 3℃ this morning in my part of the world and was 2 miles into my commute before water temperature gauge moved and 5 miles to reach normal! Agreed, a diesel would have been significantly slower warming up though.

 

[Jazzist]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

My diesel Bravo used to take up to 15 miles on really cold mornings (3 years 2010-2012 were v harsh winters)

No PTC heater either so the car was ridiculously cold to drive when -15C outside at 6 AM: gloves, hat and a coat for 30 minutes.

Oh.. and also no heated windshield so front windows open for a few miles to stop the windshield being misted up by the not functioning properly when engine cold climate control.

Those were the days.

 

[Red Mich]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Hello
Complete newbie here... stumbled across the group.
I've had my new 500 1.2 for a month now. Had a 500 previously for two years, no problems with it at all. Rang the dealer yesterday to ask them to look at my car for exactly this problem. I was beginning to think I'd forgotten how to drive! I live in a VERY hilly area, but am more than used to it and have never had the issues I have with the throttle on my new car. It's started to make me paranoid about going out and I've been driving for over 25 years.
I'm glad I found the thread - I have something to show to the dealer now if he can't find anything 'wrong' with the car tomorrow.

 

[Palma500s]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Red Mich
Hi and welcome to the forum. I wish you luck with the dealer but I am afraid you will most likely receive the same response as the rest of us. i.e. Firstly that they are surprised as they have never heard of this complaint before, secondly that there is no fault with the car and thirdly that you need to adapt your driving style to suit the car. The fact that there are numerous complaints on this forum won't make any difference to the dealer or Fiat. They will probably just shrug their shoulders.
My advice is to ask the dealer why they didn't advise you of the car's shortcomings pre-sale. It is not the sort of thing that shows up in a normal test drive around the block. They are mis-selling these cars and should be responsible for finding a solution.

 

[David Bliss]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Hi Red Mich and Palma500s,

We were fobbed off initially by promises that Fiat were working to find a fix for this problem. The tune soon changed to 'learn how to drive it'. We are seven months down the line and the car is now sitting in the garage unused. Fiat won't have it back since 'their tests have shown nothing wrong'. The car is now worthless as I cannot sell it on to anyone knowing how awful it is to drive and, as I have said before, the problem increases the risk of an accident. There is no way our car could do a hill start with four people on board up a reasonably steep hill. There have been a lot of suggested fixes put up on the forum, none of which would work.

If all those with badly affected cars complained to VOSA, Watchdog and in the motoring press we might get some redress. So far calls for others to do this seem to have failed. We can only fight Fiat in numbers.

 

[Murano16v]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Maybe someone needs to do a video showing the problem and put a link on Twitter. That might get some response.