Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

[MrDerv]

Hi.
Well i've just put a deposit on a 1242cc Panda 2014. It felt OK-ish on the test drive but remember I'm coming from a 2.5v6 Rover. So this clutch sensor what is it for..... Stop start perhaps which mine doesn't have. Can this sensor be adjusted or even removed without effecting the ECU?

The clutch sensor can be removed with no ill-effects other than rendering the stop/start ineffective. It also stops the revs rising slightly when you are about to raise the clutch in gear from a standing start.

No warning lights appeared when i unplugged it from our 2013 500 1.2

 

[Al D]

Trevor, easy way to tell which version Panda you're due to pick up- model year 2014, if there's no ASR button in front of the gear lever you've got a 14 plate with bit of a power issue before 2000 revs. If it has the button it's a 64 plate with hillholder and the amended ecu which is great for hillstarts. I know as I've owned both. The model with the issue didn't bother me as I never stalled it going uphill. Later model more linear so maybe quicker, but they both flew as far as I was concerned (compared to 2 of 3 previous shape Panda's I had), and I traded in cars a lot faster. Also, if you're doing 3000rpm at 70 instead of 3250 you have the later model. Lot quieter.


Hope this helps.

 

[david131]

I bought a new punto 1.2 easy (euro 6) in January 2015 and it was awful when pulling away, I got them to look at it and they said it was ok ! anyway I stuck with it and at 10k miles it seemed a lot better and now at 15k miles it is ok and what I expected when I picked it up from Fiat but it has taken 15k to bed in and free up, I think fully syn oil doesn't help as they take a lot longer to run in but 15k !!

 

[jrkitching]

I bought a new punto 1.2 easy (euro 6) in January 2015 and it was awful when pulling away, I got them to look at it and they said it was ok ! anyway I stuck with it and at 10k miles it seemed a lot better and now at 15k miles it is ok and what I expected when I picked it up from Fiat but it has taken 15k to bed in and free up, I think fully syn oil doesn't help as they take a lot longer to run in but 15k !!

Fully synthetic oil isn't ideal for running in engines, but that's what the manufacturer specifies so we are stuck with it if we don't want to risk compromising the warranty.

 

[david131]

yes but on piston engined aircraft now ie small planes and small helicopters etc they run them in on mineral oil and then move to synthetic which makes me wonder why car manufacturers don't do the same. I know they do it to these aircraft because they want them run in so they don't burn excessive oil which is understandable but it would be a good idea for cars.

 

[TrevC]

Yes, but sadly, due to cost cutting, manufacturers no longer do the "first free service" after a few hundred miles, so they just fill with synthetic on the production line. This has caused problems with VAG petrol engines consuming lots of oil for the rest of their lives - possibly other engines are affected in the same way.

 

[jrkitching]

yes but on piston engined aircraft now ie small planes and small helicopters etc they run them in on mineral oil and then move to synthetic which makes me wonder why car manufacturers don't do the same. I know they do it to these aircraft because they want them run in so they don't burn excessive oil which is understandable but it would be a good idea for cars.

It's not done just to reduce long term oil consumption; if a piston aircraft engine isn't corrrectly run in, it'll never go on to develop its full rated power; I know of at least one accident attributed to this cause which happened some years after the engine was built. A takeoff was attempted from a strip which was within the rated performance of the aircraft, but because the engine had not been properly run in and wasn't developing the full rated power, it failed to get airborne within the runway length available and crashed into the far hedge.

TrevC sums it up well; it's no longer done by car manufacturers for cost reasons.

A/C engines are typically run in on straight mineral oil for the first 50 hours (for some certified engines it's a mandatory airworthiness requirement); that would equate to about 2000 miles of use in a car.

IIRC the Panda used for a recent significant rallying event was intentionally run in on mineral oil.

 

[david131]

As you say it they used to have a free 500 mile service which included oil & filter, re torque the head bolts and adjust the tappets but they got round this with synthetic oil, stretch bolts and hydraulic tappets.

 

[John Harris]

I have a similar experience with my 1.2 Easy which I bought new in February 2016 having had a fantastic 1.1 Active for 11 years.The engine hesitation and flat spot when pulling away in first gear was so dreadful that I nearly sold the car.
After the first service and oil change at 4000 miles the car now pulls away smoothly and is great to drive-at last.
My local Fiat garage had the car for 5 days while they investigated the poor performance last November.The fault was logged with Fiat head office but I was told that the problem was my driving style-I have driven for 40 years! I was also told to set the revs at 1000 rpm to pull away.
I took the Panda to another Fiat dealer for the first service.They had a different explanation and said that it was a common problem that usually settled after a few thousand miles as the engine management system adapted to different driving styles.
I now have a car that performs normally-it seems that the oil change has cured the fault. I have had a mixed experience dealing with Fiat but the second dealer which was Fiat in Salisbury gave a correct explanation and I will continue to use them.

 

[varesecrazy]

I have a similar experience with my 1.2 Easy which I bought new in February 2016 having had a fantastic 1.1 Active for 11 years.The engine hesitation and flat spot when pulling away in first gear was so dreadful that I nearly sold the car.
After the first service and oil change at 4000 miles the car now pulls away smoothly and is great to drive-at last.

I now have a car that performs normally-it seems that the oil change has cured the fault. I have had a mixed experience dealing with Fiat but the second dealer which was Fiat in Salisbury gave a correct explanation and I will continue to use them.

it's VERY common for the dealership to plug in the car for "updates"

it's quite likely the UPDATES were what made the difference..

going back a while - when this problem was "in the news" - there was a village garage on the south coast that had a great reputation for providing such a service..

 

[p6baseunit]

Bought a 63 plate 1.2 Euro6 500sport convertible from the Watford dealer last June. Toured all round the coast of Spain in it for a month last Summer. The car was adequate, but failed to get up a couple of very steep hills. It would slow down on hilly dual carriageways (5 to 3 gear 70 to 50) and underground parking garage ramps were also very touch and go. We liked the car, but felt it was gutless.
I had my local fiat specialist remap the ECU and its like a completely different car! Like unstrapping an elephant from the back. The car no longer is hesitant, I don't need to change down to 3rd on hilly dual carriageways and it races away from roundabouts like you would expect a little rev happy 1.2 engine to do!
Cost £260 and has transformed the car.

 

[p6baseunit]

Oh and as for a test drive when buying the car.... Fiat said we couldn't test drive the car, as it was in the middle of 40 cars on their forecourt... we tested a newer demonstrator which drive completely differently!

 

[AGH1965]

Fiat said we couldn't test drive the car, as it was in the middle of 40 cars on their forecourt...

My reply would be: "Apparently you don't want me as a customer. Goodbye."

 

[HVF Fiat500]

Hi All,

I stumbled across this interesting thread after my daughter complained about her Fiat 500 being a bit fussy when pulling away. It's a 63 plate (registered Jan 2014) and she's had it for a month or so. I've driven it and it has the increase in revs as the clutch is raised reported in this thread. I drive a diesel and the governor does a similar thing so it isn't that noticeable to me, but she has upgraded from an old Ka and can notice a difference - she put it down to her driving in the early days but 1000 miles further on I'm not so sure!!

She loves her Fiat 500 but this trait is taking the edge off her enjoyment. It looks like Fiat are in denial so could one of you enthusiasts please tell me where this clutch sensor/potentiometer thing is and how easy it is to disable it. Also, does disabling it have any other side effects?

What I'd like to do is secretly disconnect it (or try some other DIY fix if there is one!) and see if she notices a difference!!

Any help and advice would be much appreciated!

Mike

 

[jrkitching]

Hi All,

I stumbled across this interesting thread after my daughter complained about her Fiat 500 being a bit fussy when pulling away. It's a 63 plate (registered Jan 2014) and she's had it for a month or so. I've driven it and it has the increase in revs as the clutch is raised reported in this thread. I drive a diesel and the governor does a similar thing so it isn't that noticeable to me, but she has upgraded from an old Ka and can notice a difference - she put it down to her driving in the early days but 1000 miles further on I'm not so sure!!

She loves her Fiat 500 but this trait is taking the edge off her enjoyment. It looks like Fiat are in denial so could one of you enthusiasts please tell me where this clutch sensor/potentiometer thing is and how easy it is to disable it. Also, does disabling it have any other side effects?

What I'd like to do is secretly disconnect it (or try some other DIY fix if there is one!) and see if she notices a difference!!

Any help and advice would be much appreciated!

Mike

If you just disconnect the wiring, you'll trigger error messages you don't want.

Some have dealt with this by physically removing the clutch position sensor with the wiring still connected, and tying it up out of the way.

It's also worth checking with a Fiat dealership to find out if there is a software update for your car.

 

[PZ500]

I believe I have this issue on my 2013 Pop, here in Australia.

The issue is when I want to move from standing, in a way I drove my old car, the revs would suddenly rise above 2500 and then suddenly drop. This would cause a loss of power and car would suddenly slow down.

I changed spark plugs and air filter, thinking this would sort it, but it didn't.

I am not overly concerned to be honest, as I have adapted my self and would hold the clutch for a half a second longer and get the revs steady at just below 2000 before moving off.
I find it more prevalent (or a bit harder to control) when hill-holder is engaged.

I will be getting a remap eventually, so I will update if that makes a difference.

 

[varesecrazy]

PZ500 2500 rpm... that is odd...


Have you got a clutch switch..??

 

[PZ500]

PZ500 2500 rpm... that is odd...


Have you got a clutch switch..??

No clutch switch.

It reminds me of driving a Citroen xsara vts. Had to get the revs to about 1500-2000 before driving off.

If I don't steady the revs on Fiat, I can feel that flat spot everyone talks about and I can see how it can be dangerous when joining traffic.

But, to be honest it is not too much of an issue for me. I don't have to rev the engine very high and I can still have a smooth and quick take off.
Remap might fix it, but if it doesn't it is not an issue for me.

 

[varesecrazy]

Remap.. probably best option.

You've tried removing battery power ?overnight..to see if the factory presets are better than its LEARNT current set-up

Charlie

 

[PZ500]

Remap.. probably best option.

You've tried removing battery power ?overnight..to see if the factory presets are better than its LEARNT current set-up

Charlie

I haven't tried that, don't want to muck around with Ecu, etc.