Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

[jrkitching]

Exchanged by 13 month old Fiat 500s for a 500 CS - built in September 2014 and less than 1000 miles on the clock.

The 2 cars are worlds apart.

FIAT told me my driving style needed adapting - I told them they needed to adapt my car.

This is the 4th 500 we as a family have bought, it may be the last based on their care so far - essentially FIAT have distanced themselves and expect the local dealer to resolve! I want a replacement car not a fix as the car is clearly not fit for purpose!!

My clutch is now very wooly following the many red line revs required to get up the inclined drive.

Hello and welcome to the forum :wave:.

I'm sorry to hear that yours is one of the 'problem' cars.

Hopefully Fiat will soon find a resolution for the increasing number of folks who are experiencing serious driveability problems with their nearly new 1.2 500.

 

[Palma500s]

Exchanged by 13 month old Fiat 500s for a 500 CS - built in September 2014 and less than 1000 miles on the clock.

The 2 cars are worlds apart.

FIAT told me my driving style needed adapting - I told them they needed to adapt my car.

This is the 4th 500 we as a family have bought, it may be the last based on their care so far - essentially FIAT have distanced themselves and expect the local dealer to resolve! I want a replacement car not a fix as the car is clearly not fit for purpose!!

My clutch is now very wooly following the many red line revs required to get up the inclined drive.

I think it would be a good idea if buyers of cars that suffer this problem were to name the dealer that they bought it from and let us know how they are treated once they complain. After all the dealers are responsible for selling a product as you quite rightly say is 'not fit for purpose' in the first place. They are making good money from these sales so should be the ones to resolve the problem.
Also if they know that their details and conduct are going to be put on the forum which will obviously have a lot of traffic following the watchdog report they will have an extra incentive to act professionally.
We can have a league of dealers to compare how they respond. ( Maybe a new thread for this jrkitching )? If one does the decent thing and gives a full refund or exchange without cost then it will be harder for others to shirk their responsibility.

 

[RussH]

OK first the disclaimer
These thoughts are based on a reasonable knowledge of 1990’s German/Bosch engine management systems. I haven’t a clue what’s in present day Fiats.

When starting a car you should never apply any throttle, don’t touch it. If you do, over time the ECU starts to store this start up throttle position as the fully closed position. Hence when it is in the actual fully closed position and move through this “perceived” fully closed position you will obviously end up with weird engine performance.

Disconnecting the battery for 10 minutes and reconnecting may reset this anomaly. However please check your handbook first. On reconnection you will no doubt be presented with numerous warning messages on the dash.

Oh and the final disclaimer, stating the obvious but even doing the above you’re messing with a car that’s under warranty.

 

[Palma500s]

This problem exists on brand new cars though.

 

[philholt101]

I wish folks would quit it with these passive-aggressive 'you're a bit dim' or 'you must be a novice driver' insinuations peppered throughout these 'issue' threads. There's a definite problem with some of the newer 1.2 engines. Yes: we know the BHP & yes: we know how to balance a clutch.

Thanks.

Sorry it wasn't my intention to belittle or offend with my post, but I feel some people have used a very poorly done watchdog report to beat Fiat with a big stick. There does seem to be a problem with the 1.2 Euro6 engine but as i said my Panda seems fine yes there is a lack of power below 2500rpm but above 3000 it seems fine. I mentioned the power because i honestly believe some people dont realise how little power this really is. Quite a few people have down sized to the 500 and Panda and seem to think the 69bhp is the same as 100+ bhp, I dropped from a 190bhp v6 to the Panda and love it. Surely it is down to the buyer to make sure the car meets there need, I goggled New Fiat Panda probelms before I went to see one and found posts on the hill starting problem in the first few search results so on the test drive made sure the sales man took me to a hill so I could try it for myself.

 

[auditt]

I dont think the second Watchdog report was poor as its exactly how my car performed on a lesser gradient hill.The only bit I dont agree with is the April date as I have been complaining to FIAT since we got the car last November and was told the car needs running in.We had a 2011 car before and had no issues with the 69bhp, but I expect this one to climb a hilly residential street and not struggle to pull out of a junction on a flat road.

 

[306maxi]

I think the 2nd was better, the dates were wrong and they seemed to imply although not explicitly state that it was all cars....

 

[Palma500s]

Surely it is down to the buyer to make sure the car meets there need

Call me old fashioned but I think it is down to the manufacturer to make sure that any new car they produce can make a hill start without having to thrash the engine and burn the clutch.

 

[philholt101]

Call me old fashioned but I think it is down to the manufacturer to make sure that any new car they produce can make a hill start without having to thrash the engine and burn the clutch.

I agree partly but the buyer does have to take some responsibility to make sure the car does what they need it to do if i lived on a steep hill i would have bought the diesel (far more torque) . As i said my Panda doesnt have a problem at all there has been some talk of it being a bad batch of engines or ecu's, that is a distinct possibility Im not trying to say that it isn't Up to Fiat to sort this out it is, but I also think that Watchdog as usual have made a mountain out of a molehill on the first report the car was clearly in 2nd gear the 2nd one with the failed racing driver thrashing the engine to 6000rpm wasnt great tv either. As I sai im not here to argue with people but it seem there is a lot of Fiat bashing going on and having had to deal with peougeout before i find Fiat to be far far better

 

[306maxi]

I agree partly but the buyer does have to take some responsibility to make sure the car does what they need it to do if i lived on a steep hill i would have bought the diesel (far more torque) . As i said my Panda doesnt have a problem at all there has been some talk of it being a bad batch of engines or ecu's, that is a distinct possibility Im not trying to say that it isn't Up to Fiat to sort this out it is, but I also think that Watchdog as usual have made a mountain out of a molehill on the first report the car was clearly in 2nd gear the 2nd one with the failed racing driver thrashing the engine to 6000rpm wasnt great tv either. As I sai im not here to argue with people but it seem there is a lot of Fiat bashing going on and having had to deal with peougeout before i find Fiat to be far far better

Whilst there is too much Fiat bashing going on here, it's Fiat's fault.

 

[muttleysdad]

Well, i tried disconnecting the clutch sensor. Easy job to do and theres no warning lights.

Took it for a drive and warmed up the engine. Tried a couple of hill starts and pulling away. There was a little difference in power, marginally better uphill. Reconnected it and tried again, lower power. I'll state now, it felt negligible, but certainly enough to notice something was different.

Anyone else suffering the issue, can you try disconnecting the clutch sensor and see if you get the same findings? There are no tools required. You'll need to turn off the Stop/Start as the clutch won't restart the car while disconnected.

I also tried someone else's suggestion (I can't remember who and there's too many pages now to look through to find the post, if this was you i apologize) of disconnecting the small pipe from the back of the airbox while the clutch sensor was connected, and it made no difference. I did however get the smell of crank case fumes as i can only assume they were escaping from the hole in the airbox (it's located near the breather hose).

Hi Guys

Sorry I've been out of the loop for a couple of days.

This is the most interesting observation to be posted for a while, When I disconnected the clutch switch a while ago on my Panda I had al sorts of warnings and alarms, which is why I didn't drive it too far. does this mean that some cars are not seeing the clutch switch input?

Chris

 

[MrDerv]

Hi Guys

Sorry I've been out of the loop for a couple of days.

This is the most interesting observation to be posted for a while, When I disconnected the clutch switch a while ago on my Panda I had al sorts of warnings and alarms, which is why I didn't drive it too far. does this mean that some cars are not seeing the clutch switch input?

Chris

I only see it as having two roles on the 500

1. To allow stop/start to operate when clutch disengaged
2. For the ECU to raise revs when a gear is selected

On other cars (notably those with cruise control or traction control), then this may present itself as a problem with warning lights as it's needed for these systems to operate correctly.

The reason it let me to suspect this part is because easily most of the time it does not raise the revs when the clutch is pressed and 1st gear engaged when stationary. Sililarly i've had the stop/start NOT restart the engine on the first actuation of the clutch, and have to press it a 2nd or 3rd time before it will start the engine (on each occasion, the clutch has been pressed to the floor).

If anyone else could try what has been suggested to see if you get the same findings as me? If you are not able to replicate my findings then i'm p*ssing in the wind and nothing to do with the power issue, in which case there's one thing off the list that's been tested and we can look at testing something else.

 

[JD82]

69bhp should be fine in a small car, my Panda 1.1 is only 54bhp and it can keep up with traffic fine. It does require constant gear changes etc but the lack of power doesn't mean it is dangerous in any way.

 

[auditt]

Got a call from CS today to say they are looking into the problem.At least they have stopped saying there is no problem.In the meantime the clutch release bearing is getting noisy which is no surprise.

 

[ab4444]

My car went into the dealership today for the diagnostics check that CS at Fiat requested. I was not surprised to learn - nor was the chap at the dealership - that nothing showed up; everything was normal. They even took it for a test drive and said it handled as they would expect. I did jokingly ask them if they'd tackled many hills but he refused to comment.

I then phoned CS - again as requested - to update my case notes with them. They've now confirmed that there is an investigation being done at Fiat HQ in Italy and until such times as they get any further advice from them, customers will now have to wait.

I have advised them that I don't have months and months to sit around avoiding hills and crawling away from junctions/roundabouts. I purchased the car in September, which essentially means I have until March to reject the car as not being fit for purpose under the Sales of Goods Act, something I would like to avoid but if there are no solutions forthcoming I may have to consider as I cannot risk going anywhere that may involve inclines.

Are there any other owners with this problem also at this stage in the proceedings? I had to specifically push Fiat UK to escalate my case so that I was assigned a case worker but I'm not sure what that means in real terms.

 

[Palma500s]

I think the best way forward is to demand action from the dealer. Don't let them pass the buck to Fiat. You bought the car in good faith from the dealer and they have banked the profit from the sale. Let them take it up with Fiat.
Make a nuisance of yourself by visiting and phoning them frequently until they decide to try and find a solution. The last thing they want is a customer complaining in front of other clients and possibly costing them sales. It is okay for you to lose money but they don't want to lose any themselves. You need a complete refund or a fair exchange for another car. Don't waste your time waiting for a fix. If there was something they could do they would have done it by now.

 

[306maxi]

I don't agree with Palma500s at all.

In a way the dealer is just as much a victim as you are, they bought something from Fiat to sell on in good faith and have ended up with something which is causing them trouble also.

Be firm with them and reasonable. Call Fiat ip regularly and find out if there's any progress on the issue. Hassling the dealer will just **** them off and will not give you a speedier resolution.

 

[Palma500s]

I don't agree with Palma500s at all.

In a way the dealer is just as much a victim as you are, they bought something from Fiat to sell on in good faith and have ended up with something which is causing them trouble also.

Be firm with them and reasonable. Call Fiat ip regularly and find out if there's any progress on the issue. Hassling the dealer will just **** them off and will not give you a speedier resolution.

Dealer has made a profit and the buyer has a car not fit for purpose. You seriously consider them both to be victims?

Dealer keeps buying and selling a product whilst knowing that it is not fit for purpose. Does so in good faith?

When I complained to Fiat I was told there was no problem and they were not willing to do anything to help. After 'hassling' the dealer I was given a fair exchange for another model within 2 weeks. Not a speedy resolution?

 

[306maxi]

You assume that the dealer doesn't want you to have a good car and experience.

 

[poggy]

If you do reject you do it with the dealer as your contract was with them, although the dealer will pursue Fiat themselves.

Unfortunately the dealer is in a catch 22 position as they can't help you and Fiat can't help them until they find a solution.

If you do reject you really want the dealer on your side as it makes it much easier, if they know Fiat will support the rejection, then they will be more willing to help.

I went through this with Fiat when I rejected a new car after a few months. Ended up with a replacement car and a loan car until they delivered, Fiat supported the dealer so they weren't left too much out of pocket.