End of free NHS treatment for the delibrerately unhealthy?

[udtrev]

I used to smoke, eat crap (I lived by a chippy) and weighed next to bugger all
Now I've given up smoking my weight went up to 17 1/2 stone (112kg in new money)
So does that mean I'm deliberately unhealthy ?
If so then I would like to point out that my weight is now down to 15 3/4 stone (101kg) since April, yes I've been working at it.
If I don't deserve NHS treatment then it does it deserve my monthly deductions ?
The NHS helped me stop smoking, I've done the weight myself.
If you bar folk like me from the NHS, then we should bar the NHS from our NI deductions - where dpoes that leave the NHS ?
And now for the contraversal bit - for all that is wrong with smoking, remember that a considerable amount is paid in tax by smokers, what would happen if all that got chopped ?

 

[Modette]

I used to smoke, eat crap (I lived by a chippy) and weighed next to bugger all
Now I've given up smoking my weight went up to 17 1/2 stone (112kg in new money)
So does that mean I'm deliberately unhealthy ?
If so then I would like to point out that my weight is now down to 15 3/4 stone (101kg) since April, yes I've been working at it.
If I don't deserve NHS treatment then it does it deserve my monthly deductions ?
The NHS helped me stop smoking, I've done the weight myself.
If you bar folk like me from the NHS, then we should bar the NHS from our NI deductions - where dpoes that leave the NHS ?
And now for the contraversal bit - for all that is wrong with smoking, remember that a considerable amount is paid in tax by smokers, what would happen if all that got chopped ?

Well done with the weight loss and quitting smoking! What you are describing there is the legacy of smoking. Many smokers stop and find they gain weight - root of the problem is smoking in the first place. I dont think that someone who has made the effort to quit smoking and lose weight should be denied services at all, because you had a choice and took the healthy option - I think this thread is about those who keep smoking, keep getting fatter and do NOTHING about it.

I agree that the government rake in a fair amount from taxing tobacco, but if tobacco was not sold then the loss of revenue would eventually level out with the decline of smoking related illness and the expenditure needed to treat it, which I would imagine runs into far more than the revenue from tobacco sales over someones lifetime.

The NHS is far from perfect but I have travelled a lot and I would rather fall ill in this country than any other country I have been to. Its $150 just to SEE a doctor in the USA, a prescription is $35 per item. When you need antibiotics thats no joke. If we continue to allow certain sections of society to exploit the NHS then we could all lose it.

 

[ChrisUK]

remember that a considerable amount is paid in tax by smokers, what would happen if all that got chopped ?

In the long term (say 60-100yrs) we'd all be quids in due to the overall better general health of the public. (If you don't count alcohol, drugs, obesity etc).

But then again if everyone's living long healthy lives it means more and more resources to keep the old people going!

Its a viscous circle and the only way out of it really is population control similar to the Chinese.

 

[udtrev]

Well done with the weight loss and quitting smoking! What you are describing there is the legacy of smoking.

I also got whammied by having a job where I am parked on me butt after spending an hour driving there, and another driving back.

I don't exercise during the week, but will have a go at weekends, just got back from a 4 mile powerwalk

 

[sludgeguts]

It seems to me that Government knows everything about me - they know exactly how much money I have contributed to the system during my working life. By the same token, they also know how much my parents contributed
They also know, from records, how much treatment I / my family have had.
The powers that be would describe me as chronically obese - how strange that I have yet to take advantage of this fantastic health system I have subscribed to during my working life.

I agree that there needs to be a chronic change in the way the NHS treats people.
For a start, instead of rounding up the pispots laying face down in their own vomit, councils would be better employing a cleanup team to pick all these people up, chuck them in a lorry & drop them off 10 miles from town. The walk back will sober them up and maybe make them think before getting drunk. The cleanuop team could be self-funded if they were to remove any dangerous cash from pockets/wallets/purses :devil:
This would free up valuable police resources AND valuable hospital resources.
The next stage would be to refuse treatment to anyone who has lived in this country less than 5 years (apart from under 16s) - it is OUR 'free' health service. In any other country we would be expected to find the money somehow - often even if we take the E111 (or whatever card it is supposed to be these days) it doesn't cover everything. When we go abroad, we are expected to make provision for our healthcare - so why isn't the same applied to people coming in from abroad?

So now we have freed up a good 50% of NHS resources we can concentrate on helping those who have contributed to the system.

Another problem is that society expects the NHS to prop up the critically ill (inc the very frail elderly) so we have hospitals and care homes full of vegetables. Their families do their dutiful visit yet the old dear hasn't a clue who they are & often spends the whole time asleep - not because they are drugged but because their bodies are so knackered that they have to sleep 23 hours a day just to get the energy to eat. The family insist the patient is kept alive at any cost out of some obscure sense of duty, the NHS has to and yet all their lives the patient has said "if I ever get like that, shoot me". Introduce the living will and set up some guidelines.

 

[ChrisUK]

It seems to me that Government knows everything about me - they know exactly how much money I have contributed to the system during my working life. By the same token, they also know how much my parents contributed
They also know, from records, how much treatment I / my family have had.
The powers that be would describe me as chronically obese - how strange that I have yet to take advantage of this fantastic health system I have subscribed to during my working life.

I agree that there needs to be a chronic change in the way the NHS treats people.
For a start, instead of rounding up the pispots laying face down in their own vomit, councils would be better employing a cleanup team to pick all these people up, chuck them in a lorry & drop them off 10 miles from town. The walk back will sober them up and maybe make them think before getting drunk. The cleanuop team could be self-funded if they were to remove any dangerous cash from pockets/wallets/purses :devil:
This would free up valuable police resources AND valuable hospital resources.
The next stage would be to refuse treatment to anyone who has lived in this country less than 5 years (apart from under 16s) - it is OUR 'free' health service. In any other country we would be expected to find the money somehow - often even if we take the E111 (or whatever card it is supposed to be these days) it doesn't cover everything. When we go abroad, we are expected to make provision for our healthcare - so why isn't the same applied to people coming in from abroad?

So now we have freed up a good 50% of NHS resources we can concentrate on helping those who have contributed to the system.

Sludgeguts for health minister! :slayer:

 

[T14086]

Sludgeguts for health minister! :slayer:

gotta admit...he's good

 

[Ulpian]

Let's get one fact straight; people have always known that smoking was unhealthy. They may have disregarded advice, and smoking may have been fashionable once, but that makes no difference.

The same goes for food. It isn't just recently that people knew the difference between healthy food and treats. The problem is that the treats, like crisps, ice cream, biscuits, cake and chocolate have for many people been factored into their daily diets. They know that they should keep this stuff for Christmas and the odd birthday, but they choose not to bother.

I can state the above will assurance because these matters were discussed when I was a child, by many people, and I well remember my grandmother, who was born in 1888, condemning people for smoking and overindulgence in party food.

She wasn't alone. And fat people were quite rare fifty years ago.
So, given that we all know what we are doing to ourselves, we should take the consequences of our own actions.

I read today of some greedy young woman taking the health service to law because they won't fit her with a gastric band. I'd tell her to b***** off and eat sensibly, and stop whining.

Fat people cost the health service a fortune in coronary related disease and diabetes, not to mention replacemt surgery and a host of other ailments. In many cultures diabetes is practically unknown, and it was very rare here years ago. I'd make a national statement to the effect that in future fat people, smokers, people wanting tattoos removed and a host of other self-indulgent wasters would be refused health service treatment for anything other than emergencies. Thereafter they would be charged, the going rate. Knowing that they are risking their health these people could take out health insurance to protect them, if they could find cover!

A consultant physician told a fat friend of mine who was complaining that she could do nothing about her weight gain that no fat people came out of Belsen. That shut her up. Harsh, but true, and effective; she is now eating fewer cakes and fizzy drinks, and losing weight.

Much of the disease we encounter is self induced. The elderly deserve our best care, as do the sensible unwell, but the self-indulgent, including those who get drunk and find themselves in hospital at the weekends, should be made to pay. Period.

As for smokers paying for their care in tax, well, I like their tax, but it is national insurance that pays for the health service, not duty on tobacco and alcohol.

 

[udtrev]

Fat people cost the health service a fortune in coronary related disease and diabetes, not to mention replacemt surgery and a host of other ailments.

As for smokers paying for their care in tax, well, I like their tax, but it is national insurance that pays for the health service, not duty on tobacco and alcohol.

By my BMI I am classified as fat, my account with the NHS is well in credit on their side, I last saw a doctor over 2 years ago, the only time I have seen him regularily was when I was stopping smoking back in 2004 so how am I costing the NHS ?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The National Insurance Fund represents the funds of the National Insurance Scheme, set up by the British Government following World War II. In the Beveridge Report this was designed as part of a universal insurance system for all British people. The funds are held in the National Insurance Fund (NIF), separate from Consolidated Revenue.[1] Contributions are not "taxes" because they are not directly available for general expenditure by the government.
The income of the NIF consists of contributions from employees, employers and the self-employed, plus interest on its investments. The NIF is used to pay for social security benefits such as state retirement pensions, but not for the means tested Minimum Income Guarantee and Tax Credits. National Insurance contributions as a whole finance the National Health Service, but contributions are paid into the fund by the Secretary State net of moneys allocated to the NHS.[2] Thus the NIF does not hold money directed for the general provision of health services in the UK. The government determines the total allocation for health each year and the allocation from each class contribution is calculated by the Government actuary.
Each year there is a surplus of the order of £2 billion. The NIF had a surplus of over £34 billion as at 2005/06, £38 billion in 2006/7 and the Government Actuary's Department forecasts that this surplus will grow to over £114.7 billion by 2012.[3]
The surplus is loaned to the government through the Debt Management Office which is part of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt in Call Notice Deposits (previously invested in gilt-edged securities) and interest on these invested monies is paid to the NIF - £1.3 billion in the 2007/08 year.
By the government's "golden rule", borrowed money (which includes the NIF surplus) cannot be used to finance current expenditure. It can be used only for investment, mainly capital investment in infrastructure. The money in the NIF can be used only for payment of benefits and administration expenses.
Levels of benefit and contributions are set following the advice of the Government Actuary, who recommends that a prudential balance of two months contribution revenue (about £8 billion) should be kept in the fund.

 

[claymore]

A couple of months ago I was outside a supermarket, and there was this massive fat bloke bragging to his friend about how he'd been given a disabled badge, just because he's gotton himself into a massive fat state.

They feel the need to create a master race of fatties.

"Are we not the superfats?"

 

[Ulpian]

You should hope you don't get back what you put in. The point is that people with serious illnesses and congenital disease should have good care. I don't mind if I never see a hospital, and I don't object to appropriate taxation.

However, I do object to irresponsibility. I mentioned older people, and I have to say that there are plenty of those who are self-indulgent and refuse to take good advice. Some of them cost a fortune to keep, and I do wonder sometimes why they should get the medical care they get for free, particularly when they constantly aggravate their conditions by their own indulgence.

This is a difficult subject, but we don't have universal 'free' healthcare anyway: teeth and some foot treatments are charged for. I wonder at this because not everyone has bad teeth due to neglect, but there you are.

Have toothache and need root canal work and you pay: stuff yourself full of crap, get fat, and all the treatment you get is free.

This is wrong.

 

[sludgeguts]

gotta admit...he's good

Have you ever read my ramblings regarding treatment of prisoners?:devil:

 

[Modette]

Have you ever read my ramblings regarding treatment of prisoners?:devil:

Would love to read those, I used to be a prison officer.....

 

[sludgeguts]

Would love to read those, I used to be a prison officer.....

During a visit to an old gaol I noticed apparatus whereby prisoners had to use a 'treadmill' (they stepped into a bay and, basically, climbed a never ending flight of steps) to provide utilities to the prison. In the same way as a water wheel or steam engine used to provide power to hundreds of machines in a mill, the treadmill would lift water to the roof to supply the kitchens with water on tap or for flushing toilets or bathing.
Through a series of gears & belts, the treadmill provided power to other areas of the prison such as machinery where other prisoners worked to produce goods which were sold to buy food for the prisoners.

Seems to me that this is something the prison service could look into.
Maybe a few hours education, breakfast, work, tea, education, bit of free time then bed.
For those that don't reckon they need to improve their minds - more work!

The state pays more to keep someone in prison than they pay to keep our frail/elderly in care homes - in fact, looking at Ronnie Biggs, our frail, elderly would get much better care in prison than in care!

But that's just my bigotted view :devil:

 

[Modette]

During a visit to an old gaol I noticed apparatus whereby prisoners had to use a 'treadmill' (they stepped into a bay and, basically, climbed a never ending flight of steps) to provide utilities to the prison. In the same way as a water wheel or steam engine used to provide power to hundreds of machines in a mill, the treadmill would lift water to the roof to supply the kitchens with water on tap or for flushing toilets or bathing.
Through a series of gears & belts, the treadmill provided power to other areas of the prison such as machinery where other prisoners worked to produce goods which were sold to buy food for the prisoners.

Seems to me that this is something the prison service could look into.
Maybe a few hours education, breakfast, work, tea, education, bit of free time then bed.
For those that don't reckon they need to improve their minds - more work!

The state pays more to keep someone in prison than they pay to keep our frail/elderly in care homes - in fact, looking at Ronnie Biggs, our frail, elderly would get much better care in prison than in care!

But that's just my bigotted view :devil:

Danger of going off topic here so maybe a new thread is what is needed.

If they are on remand, they dont have to do anything if they dont want to, because they havent been found guilty of anything or sentenced.

If they ARE convicted then they can either 'work' in the prison or study.

The ones who work clean communal areas, cook all the meals that are eaten by other prisoners AND the staff etc. They get a small wage for this which they can use to buy toiletries, cigarettes etc.

What you have described there, work, education, tea, bit of free time and bed, IS pretty much what happens. At least it did in the female establishment where I worked.