Technical End float / End play on 479CC Rebuild?

[Bigvtwin996]

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I bought my parts through FD Ricambi, who was adamant that there have never been any issues fitting these parts to a 479 engine. Now I need to send proof back. They are substantially different. See the attached pics!

I would always advise speaking to Andrea at Passione 500, he supplies many dealers with parts and as he owns an N along with many of his friends in Italy...

 

[ChiapC]

So, I'm still having some issues, though I've taken Peter's advice and reached out to Andrea for some assistance. I've come to find the original bearing seals for the 479cc engine and the bearing seals for the 499cc engines are completely different and don't play well with other parts. This makes the timing chain extremely loose and/or the oil slinger bolt too close to the timing cover. I'll explain the steps I've gone through in an effort to make this convoluted mess readable!

After installing the new bearings (with cut outs for timing chain) and the new bearing seals that they sell, the chain was tight, but offset. (I know you can pull the cam out a bit, but I don't think it should be off center for the distributor) So the timing chain wasn't right, then when putting it together with the main bolt through the oil slinger, the oil slinger gets sucked up into the timing housing so much that the knobs on the back of the oil slinger come into contact with the ribs on the timing housing preventing the engine from spinning. My thought here is a need a oil slinger from a newer engine that is hopefully deeper.

If I use the original crank bearing seal bits, the oil slinger spins freely, but the timing chain is extremely loose, using the old/original sprocket or gear. If I use the new gear that came with the chain, the chain is tight, but it is extremely offset from the crank sprocket, as pictured.


I'm working on finding a combination that works here, but it seems like it's a combination of old and new parts, some of which I don't have that would make this work.


So I'm a bit flustered trying to figure this out. My theory is there is a shorter timing chain that used to be available, as the new timing chains are way to loose to be comfortable mounting it up on the old sprocket. (It is not worn, I bought a new old stock one and it is the same).


Everybody loves pics, so here are a few. Just thought you'd all be interested to see how this plays out. Not easy.

 

[Bigvtwin996]

So, I'm still having some issues, though I've taken Peter's advice and reached out to Andrea for some assistance........................................... .

You may have to wait for a reply from Andrea, other than the 2h lunch breaks he and his staff have where they totally close.. he is off on a typical holiday till late August obviously much longer than the usual......

 

[the hobbler]

Just a thought Chase---the washer that we can't find a home for, does it go behind the crank sprocket to bring it out so that the 2 sprockets align? I have carefully re-checked the diagram that I sent you, and the diagram does NOT show a washer between the crank-sprocket and the washer with the seal ring, but maybe (hopefully !)Andrea can throw some light on the conundrum.
The new chains ARE tight, to the point that you have to put the crank sprocket on first, then fit the chain round the crank sprocket, then put the chain round the cam sprocket and THEN fit the cam sprocket to the cam---which can be a bit difficult, but they do go on. Before you put the chain onto the cam sprocket, align your cam-sprocket/crank sprocket timing marks. Don't worry about the cam alignment at this stage, as long as the timing marks align. When you have the cam sprocket on the camshaft, you will still be able (with a large flat screw-driver) to turn the camshaft so that the bolt holes align---they will only align correctly in ONE position.

 

[ChiapC]

After reviewing my photos from before, the washer we “couldn’t find a home for” goes on the crank just in front of the crank sprocket. The diagram you have does not show the seal kit that came on my engine stock. That is only the later engines. I haven’t seen my current setup anywhere.

I don’t understand how the new sprockets don’t line up with the old ones. Maybe I need a new cam that is 1/2cm longer. Something is off! I just ordered a proper parts catalog for my car. Maybe there’s a part number for the original timing chain I can use!

 

[the hobbler]

I am equally baffled Chase because all the information, and the diagram, that I have given/sent you has come a Fiat "Factory" w/shop manual for the "Nuovo 500" 479cc engine! Unfortunately I do not have a parts catalogue for the 479cc engine, only the "110F" (500cc) engine. I have found a possibly better crankshaft diagram which I will e-mail to you. It shows the washer that goes against the crank edge, then the washer with the 'piston-ring' type seal and then the section of the pulley that the big hollow crank bolt tightens up against. On the '479' engine, the pulley would seem to be part of the filter-cover. I will send both diagrams through to you so that you can see the difference.

 

[ChiapC]

Thanks! I’m sure there is a smaller timing chain for the 479cc engine. My engine didn’t have the seal with the piston ring at all.... maybe as Peter has continued to mention.... theses engines changed multiple times as they were developed. Maybe I have an odd one!

Part of me wants to move this car on if I can’t figure this out. I’ll eventually sell it anyway, as I have two cars mid restoration and will need the space/money when they are done! I’ve got a 67 Alfa Giulia Super that’s nearing completion and a 65 21 window vw bus that’s currently getting some serious metal work done! Those are probably going to be my keepers, though I do love this little Fiat!!!

 

[Bigvtwin996]

I will try and find time to go through the parts books and compare...
Tom... may send you the 110 Part numbers for the timing chain parts so you can cross reference them with your F books...
If can I will scan and email you the pages as well....
also have Italian books (Scans) from my friend Chris who ran Tpo110 but he has closed at down... Too many people taking and not giving.. considering he funded and maintained the site at hks own expense... not surprising...

Sorry but at the moment I do not have the time to do much myself......

I was hoping Andy (Spike) would jump in as I am sure he has been through all this....

 

[ChiapC]

I just bought a group of N factory part books. Not sure when they'll get here. If I can facilitate getting them online for all of your use, I'll do that!

 

[ChiapC]

I just got an email back from Andrea, he confirmed the 479 and 499 timing kits ARE different. He believes he has spares of the 479 kits. Though he’s going on vacation for three weeks.... so I guess I’ve got to wait!

At least there’s some resolution though! Pending he can find one of the kits! I feel like the part websites should fix their fitment guides as they aren’t for ‘all’ 500’s.

 

[Bigvtwin996]

I just got an email back from Andrea, he confirmed the 479 and 499 timing kits ARE different. He believes he has spares of the 479 kits. Though he’s going on vacation for three weeks.... so I guess I’ve got to wait!

At least there’s some resolution though! Pending he can find one of the kits! I feel like the part websites should fix their fitment guides as they aren’t for ‘all’ 500’s.

I told you he was off....
You should mention me (Peter in England with the Jolly- who is always after a discount)...
So many dealers dish out advice on N's but few own one or ever have..... Andrea is sort of a member of the Inner circle of the Fiat 500 club of Turin.... If he does not stock something... he knows enough people who may have N parts.....
Most dealers just sell volume.. Mate of mine has one of the largest specialist spares shops in Europe... he used to be so enthusiastic.. now .. he says he could be selling tins of beans... it's a part with a product code with a markup ...

 

[ChiapC]

So I got a great package yesterday, it really helps and may help others! I got an original 500 Nuova parts book set. This shows my exact crank seal kit, that I haven’t seen elsewhere!!

I’ve attached a few pics of the books and the page showing the parts and timing chain. The proper timing chain part number 987044.

If anybody reading this and needs part numbers, I’m happy to help!

 

[Toshi 975]

Does part 6, the large sprocket , have its own part number. I seem to have an odd one that may be N.

 

[the hobbler]

Well done Chase--brilliant effort in obtaining those "Nuovo 500" manuals--are they in English, English/Italian or just Italian? What it does show is that there is, just as I surmised, a 3rd washer between the crank and the sprocket, which brings the 2 sprockets in line---a home has been found for that poor lonely washer! What amazes me is that MY w/shop manual, which as I have mentioned before is a "Fiat Factory" publication (and as per the diagrams I have sent you) do NOT show that washer? It just shows how different the very early 479cc cars were compared to even the later 479cc cars. Let's look on the bright side---we now have somebody with the required w/shop and parts manuals for the very early 500 cars. Again---very well done.

 

[ChiapC]

Does part 6, the large sprocket , have its own part number. I seem to have an odd one that may be N.

Yes indeed!!! I actually bought an extra one, thinking mine was worn. Though I don’t need it now. The part number is 4038374. The part is significantly different than the 499cc sprocket.

 

[ChiapC]

Well done Chase--brilliant effort in obtaining those "Nuovo 500" manuals--are they in English, English/Italian or just Italian? What it does show is that there is, just as I surmised, a 3rd washer between the crank and the sprocket, which brings the 2 sprockets in line---a home has been found for that poor lonely washer! What amazes me is that MY w/shop manual, which as I have mentioned before is a "Fiat Factory" publication (and as per the diagrams I have sent you) do NOT show that washer? It just shows how different the very early 479cc cars were compared to even the later 479cc cars. Let's look on the bright side---we now have somebody with the required w/shop and parts manuals for the very early 500 cars. Again---very well done.

Thanks! I was pretty surprised to see this on eBay! I bought an original advertisement book as well, that should be here today.

The books have Italian, French, English and German! So nice! I just wanted to see a publication showing that my parts were the original parts, just as you were questioning as they weren’t in the fiat factory manual!

 

[Bigvtwin996]

So I got a great package yesterday, it really helps and may help others! I got an original 500 Nuova parts book set. This shows my exact crank seal kit, that I haven’t seen elsewhere!!

I’ve attached a few pics of the books and the page showing the parts and timing chain. The proper timing chain part number 987044.

If anybody reading this and needs part numbers, I’m happy to help!

that is a nice set.. i have the 140 book which is the US Spec..

I thought I had said the sprocket is N only...Andy found the same issue...

 

[Toshi 975]

Yes indeed!!! I actually bought an extra one, thinking mine was worn. Though I don’t need it now. The part number is 4038374. The part is significantly different than the 499cc sprocket.

Thank you I will check it out ?

 

[ChiapC]

I think I found a timing chain! Here in the states two! Found a few others in Europe, but this was here and cheap! Worth a shot!

 

[Bigvtwin996]

I think I found a timing chain! Here in the states two! Found a few others in Europe, but this was here and cheap! Worth a shot!

I think there is a lot of NOS N parts in the USA...
When Fiat introduced the 500 (N) into the US they had to ship a lot of parts to dealers for backup/support (customers would not want to wait weeks for spares to be shipped from Italy), however the 500 didn't hit the spot with US car buyers so Fiat discontinued their export drive...
So those spares were not returned to Italy.. and are still sitting on shelves or in old storerooms n the US..I brought a NOS N Voltage regulator from the US, the seller had no idea what it was, and was surprised i was willing to pay more in postage than I was paying for the item....
(there are also a lot of N's there too)