Technical EGR Heaven and Hell

[multieddie]

On a seperate note , i can clear the bollards at the end of your road Eddie when there is only 2 in the car.

That's livin on the edge JTDman! I haven't got the guts to try the bollards of death.

It's a small world is it not, especially when you drive a car that looks like an Amazonian Tree Frog!

Going off topic once more, currently trying to un-seize my spare wheel carrier. Any ideas?

 

[JTDman]

There has been posts on here about it saying the gear inside seizes or maybe wears as i think its made from plastic so dont overtighten it or you may get stuck.

 

[multieddie]

Well and truly stuck I'm afraid. Think I'll have to somehow free the tyre from the carrier and stick it in the boot. the nut is just spinning freely. Me thinks the plastic helical screw thingy has chewed itself up, due to the release cable rusting fast. What where they thinking when they designed that?!!!! It seems the wackiness didn't stop with the styling of the car. Mind you I've got history with wacky cars having owned two hydraulic suspension Citroens in the past... St

 

[disgusted]

Hi Multieddie,

Did your EGR fun ever seem to be temperature related?

I get coughing and spluttering and a total loss of accellerative power when the car gets hot (i.e. big traffic jam, or entering a city after a long drive). I live in Kent & have done return trips in the last month to Gloucester, Preston & Edinburgh. The car is fine for hundreds of miles, until 3 or 4 bars in the temperature display comes up for a long time - then the fun begins.

This is an unhappy situation on the run up to the family holiday in Cornwall in August. Hot weather, 6 up, trailer, roofboot. The car won't make it.

I might have to resort to my hydraulic Citroen (1979 CX Familiale c-matic)! Although the prospect of a 25mpg thirst scares me. What Cits did you have?


Rgds,



Disgusted.

 

[demag]

Ooh! Cx. Nice, had two of them. Not Familiale's though.

 

[multieddie]

I had a 1987 BX petrol (1.4 I think) which I drove down to the Loire Valley one very hot summer. Magic carpet ride and unique looks. Was written off by BMW driver who ran into the back of me while stationary at the lights - a little alarming.

I also had a metallic green GSA (V reg I think) which was a restoration project that never really made it. A baby CX in many respects. Flat four engine, hydraulic suspension and inboard disc brakes. Utterly insane piece of engineering and the looks of a Tiger Shark!

Meanwhile, back to the future and the Multipla EGR... No, I didn't find any link between temperature and sudden power loss - it was just crap all the time until I cleaned out the valve!

Sorry I couldn't help more.

 

[Hedgeperson]

I had my EGR cleaned out today.

Mine is a 7 year old 115 JTD ELX, 43k. Pretty sure it's never been cleaned out before; the mechanic doubted it, too.

Anyway, there was a lot of soot in there, apparently. The car feels transformed. The turbo picks up nice and cleanly and pulls much more evenly now.

All in all, 50 quid very well spent. Re-map next...

Cheers, Hedge

 

[widemouthfrog]

Got around to having a go at my EGR over the weekend as well. The engine in my car is a replacement (previous owner had it fitted) so I think it's done 47k, though it's quite possible the EGR came from the original engine, in which case it's done more like 108k.

Judging by the amount of soot, it had never been cleaned.

I was surprised just how 'dry' the soot was. Not a horrible solid lump like I was expecting but a very fine powder that was very easy to remove. Five minutes and some Wynns brake cleaner had it looking like this:

Getting it off the car (as has been noted above) was the work of satan however. Talk about inaccessible. I took heed of the advice and got my self a set of Halfords Pro ratchet spanners. Their fine tooth ratchet and flexible head made life a whole lot easier. They're also very nicely made and better still are half price at the moment! Highly recommended. The spanners and decent long and short reach 6mm allen keys were all that I needed, along with an old toothbrush to clean the egr out. Start to finish took a shade over two hours, inlcuding allowing the brake cleaner to dry out before I refitted the EGR.

I can't say it transformed the car (you can see that there's a hole in the soot in the 'before' picture, so I think it was probably still functioning), but pick up seems cleaner. I still haven't got the low-down diesel urge I'm after. Let us all know what the remap is like, Hedgeperson!

 

[Hedgeperson]

Re-map done, drove this eve.

It's cool, feels nice. Much more pull in 2nd and upwards, spins up earlier and goes through most of the rev range, seems.

I'm using it to trailer to Spa this weekend so I'll update after; that should be a more thorough test than the short route I tried tonight.

Oh and the fuel economy seemed to improve! What with an EGR clean and now this re-map just this week, my car certainly feels more urgent/ smoother.

Sound enough guys, the Angel crew.

Cheers, Hedge

 

[widemouthfrog]

Sounds good. Does it feel like you've gained any low end torque?

Can I ask what you're taking to Spa?

 

[Hedgeperson]

Sounds good. Does it feel like you've gained any low end torque?

Can I ask what you're taking to Spa?

Yeah it does, actually, spot on. Wasn't expecting it, to be honest, but about the only gear you don't notice the torque and shove is 1st...

I'm taking my Ariel Atom to Spa.

Cheers, Hedge

 

[pondweed]

bumping this as its a good thread.
has anyone suspecting the EGR is blocked, actually disconnected the electrical actuator first to see if they get more urge through the EGR not actually being actuated in the first place?

From the pics, I cant work out whether the cleaned sections actually result in the airflow improving between intercooler and inlet manifold, or just in the pipework that increases the efficiency of the open/close when exhaust gases enter the flow.

Some EGRs actuallyhave the valve in the centre of the primary airflow and this is why the improvement is felt when cleaned (or even more so if the valve is completely removed)

Could someone interpret the eper diagram - I cant work out whether its inline with the airflow or not...
http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi...INT_MODE=0&EPER_CAT=SP&GUI_LANG=3&WINDOW_ID=1

 

[Peat]

Isn't the problem with poor performance because the EGR is stuck permanently open when sooted up? In fact you can diagnose the fault by checking to see if the convoluted steel pipe between the EGR & the inlet manifold gets hot quickly on tick-over from start-up because of instant passage of exhaust gas.
If my statement is correct then disconnecting the power plug will have no effect because the solenoid rest state is valve closed and switched is open.

Having said that and if true then a method of blanking the EGR (one that is working properly) would be to disconnect the plug!

What say you?

Regarding the position of the EGR. IT is not in the primary air flow: the exhaust gas runs from exhaust down pipe to the intercooler > pipe > EGR > convoluted pipe on to rear side of inverted L shaped alloy pipe and then inlet manifold. Primary air flow via air-filter > MAF > rubbery ribbed hose to turbo > rubber smooth hose to bottom end of inverted L shaped alloy pipe > inlet manifold.

If you can follow that & I can hardly do it myself Gunga Din. You are a better man than I!

Peat

 

[pondweed]

I agree - if there is no increasing soot obstruction of a valve in the primary airway, then less bother.... but that still doesn't adddress the basic inefficiencies of the EGR process - i.e. introducing the inert charge of air into the combustion chamber. And we are putting soot and oily gunge back into what would be better as a scrupulously clean airway.

If the EGR 'charge' is not added, then isnt it going to be more responsive generally? I accept this is added at a time of low load, but every little helps.

 

[Peat]

Ah but the introduction of an EGR valve into the system was not in the cause of efficiency.

It was a mandatory exercise by the mandarins within the EU to remove some minor charge of particulates into the atmosphere thus saving the planet!

 

[pondweed]

exactly. Its a moral discussion that is going on in many forums - i.e. if the MOT test is satisfied as it doesn't test on the invisible NOx gases that the EGR reduces, then there are other environmental considerations from EGR bypass or cutoff... for "proper" environmentalists who realise that things like scrappage should be questioned! (i.e. stopping EGR means your car might live longer, do more mpg and emit less larger soot particles - all which balance out the reduction in NOx.)

Incidentally, the three routes are:
1. pulling the electric supply for the solenoid
2. stopping the flow with a solid gasket
3. just pulling the rubber pipe off.

On CDT Rovers, 3. is sufficient. Some owners have removed the valve entirely as it sits partially obscuring the air intake, with remarkable results.

ON Siemens HDI Berlingo, either 1, 2 OR 3 would still raise an engine light!

 

[Ffoxy]

How about an EGR stuck partially open (or partially closed)?

I have to admit being a bit flumoxed here, I have done some driving / trip / distance analysis on my GPS and I find that I do a lot of daily short trips, maybe 4 or 5 a day, 6 mile trips, urban driving at low / modest speeds, interspersed with the occasional long M-way trips (200 miles or so) at or around the national speed limit (sometimes over) OK dont shoot me...

Thing is I have now got 55,000 miles on the car and no sign of EGR problems.

I had a Red Dot re-map at 32,000 miles, TBH I was half expecting EGR problems as a kind of normal thing but no...

Now could it be that it is because the car is always in use, and not giving the soot chance to harden up and clog it, or the interspersed fast M-way runs that blow the cr*p out that I have not experienced and issues with my EGR?

Its a 2006 car on a 56 plate, kept regularly well serviced.

 

[pondweed]

got the 3 spanner bolts out, disconnected the connector, got the inlet manifold allen key bolts out.... but would the exhaust manifold connector allens come out? NO!
Tried with an extension (bit of copper pipe) over the long 6mm allen key.... still nothing. Must be starting to stretch the sides of the bolt.

What now - all the torq fixings - they arent 4mm allens - are undoable on the end of the EGR (I checked) - but it will be slow work in situ. Can I get to everything if I drop that end of the EGR, and the little flexi pipe at the other?
grrrr

 

[Peat]

Not wanting to add to your woes Pondweed but what is your aim in removing the EGR. Are you going to clean it and replace or is there another devious plan in mind?
I ask because I have just returned from the FIAT dealer with a new gasket ( 46773082 ) so that I may make up a blanking plate to insert between the exhaust manifold and the heat exchanger pipe thereby eliminating ALL future EGR problems. Why I haven't done this sooner I cannot say apart from not having thought to do so until this thread started. This would seem to be the easiest solution as the two screws are most accessible and I reckon will take about twenty leasurely minutes to complete the job from raising the bonnet.
The EGR was cleaned about 30K ago but as I drive I have visions of grotty little soot particles sticking to the valve with the sole aim of clogging it up again; especially now that I am retired and only doing short journeys.

Peat

 

[pondweed]

well, I was factoring on cleaning first to determine IF it was slightly open.

I will mention the hassle I had with the Siemens ECU system on a Berlingo HDI, where the pulling of the electrovalve plug, the removal of the rubber tube to the mechanical EGR AND putting a made up gasket (as per your suggestion) all seemed to raise the engine light until the system was "corrected"!

But that's why I was asking before if anyone had managed to do it on here without the system recognising.

From my looking today, isnt the LEAST accessible bit the one that comes from the exhaust, through the heat exchanger? The one I managed to get off easily was the one after the EGR, into the inlet manifold? But presumably doesn't matter which gets done!

Do it soon and tell us what happens...!!