Technical Ducato X250 handbrake query

[gm6vxb]

More a query than a problem. All relates to the handbrake on a 2007 X250 Ducato.
Doing a full refurbishment on front and rear brakes (new discs, pads, shoes, calipers cables etc) came to remove
the rear disc/drum as known problems with the handbrake.
I have done this before so know where the 'adjuster' is located, but found some paperwork from the last time I did the rear brakes and this caused me some minor confusion.
I have (what I think) is a page from 'A' manual, not sure if FIAT and this shows the Adjuster located at the TOP (12 o'clock) of the drum both in description and diagram.
Now I know the adjuster is at 3 o'clock so no great problem for backing off/ re-adjusting.

Really the query is, has the design of the brakes changed at some time, or is this just someone not checking the design before publishing ?.

Meanwhile nearly finished the rear brakes. Failed MOT on less than 50% efficiency on handbrake. Not suprised, both cables starting to fray (which the tester missed) and both sides well out of adjustement.

Martin, GM6VXB

 

[jackwhoo]

More a query than a problem. All relates to the handbrake on a 2007 X250 Ducato.
Doing a full refurbishment on front and rear brakes (new discs, pads, shoes, calipers cables etc) came to remove
the rear disc/drum as known problems with the handbrake.
I have done this before so know where the 'adjuster' is located, but found some paperwork from the last time I did the rear brakes and this caused me some minor confusion.
I have (what I think) is a page from 'A' manual, not sure if FIAT and this shows the Adjuster located at the TOP (12 o'clock) of the drum both in description and diagram.
Now I know the adjuster is at 3 o'clock so no great problem for backing off/ re-adjusting.

Really the query is, has the design of the brakes changed at some time, or is this just someone not checking the design before publishing ?.

Meanwhile nearly finished the rear brakes. Failed MOT on less than 50% efficiency on handbrake. Not suprised, both cables starting to fray (which the tester missed) and both sides well out of adjustement.

Martin, GM6VXB

Hi,

Yes adjusters for hand brake shoes on x250 are at 3 o'clock position right hand side and 9 o'clock left hand side.

I have found these a real pain to adjust to get a decent handbrake effort.

There was also a change in how many teeth to wind back after winding fully on .

Best wishes
Jack

 

[jackwhoo]

You sound like you know what you are doing but it is essential that the handbrake cables are fully free before setting the shoe adjusters.

 

[Communicator]

More a query than a problem. All relates to the handbrake on a 2007 X250 Ducato.
Doing a full refurbishment on front and rear brakes (new discs, pads, shoes, calipers cables etc) came to remove
the rear disc/drum as known problems with the handbrake.
I have done this before so know where the 'adjuster' is located, but found some paperwork from the last time I did the rear brakes and this caused me some minor confusion.
I have (what I think) is a page from 'A' manual, not sure if FIAT and this shows the Adjuster located at the TOP (12 o'clock) of the drum both in description and diagram.
Now I know the adjuster is at 3 o'clock so no great problem for backing off/ re-adjusting.

Really the query is, has the design of the brakes changed at some time, or is this just someone not checking the design before publishing ?.

Meanwhile nearly finished the rear brakes. Failed MOT on less than 50% efficiency on handbrake. Not suprised, both cables starting to fray (which the tester missed) and both sides well out of adjustement.

Martin, GM6VXB

Interesting. On my 2006 x244 the adjusters are at the top. I have a saved link to a 2011, OAL thread relating to the x250. The thread includes the relevant pages from eLearn for the x250, which clearly show the adjusters at the top. No comments were made as to this being incorrect.

 

[gm6vxb]

Interesting. On my 2006 x244 the adjusters are at the top. I have a saved link to a 2011, OAL thread relating to the x250. The thread includes the relevant pages from eLearn for the x250, which clearly show the adjusters at the top. No comments were made as to this being incorrect.

Thanks Communicator. That looks like the link I have. So the 244 adjusters were at the top, and 250's moved to the side. Someone has just copied the 244 manual to the 250 then and probably will caused much confusion.
Adjusting is not easy, shining a torch down the same hole that you are trying to do the adjustment with, but after a couple of try's the adjustment is pretty close. Fortunately it should not have to be done too often !.
Last few bits to do now, then a test run to check all working and then double check adjustments ready for the MOT again

 

[HughJampton]

Thanks Communicator. That looks like the link I have. So the 244 adjusters were at the top, and 250's moved to the side. Someone has just copied the 244 manual to the 250 then and probably will caused much confusion.
Adjusting is not easy, shining a torch down the same hole that you are trying to do the adjustment with, but after a couple of try's the adjustment is pretty close. Fortunately it should not have to be done too often !.
Last few bits to do now, then a test run to check all working and then double check adjustments ready for the MOT again

AFAIK, the handbrake efficiency should be at least 16%. Your 50% failure is probably failure to make 50% of that.
Handbrakes on every Sevel van I've had have been poor (and particularly Al-Ko conversions), but they respond to fettling.
Just a tip (though it's a bit controversial safety-wise). The 16% MOT value is the measured braking force as a percentage of the weight of the vehicle as tested. It pays to present it in as light a state as possible to maximise the chance of passing. I empty mine and use it as the annual clear-out opportunity.

 

[gm6vxb]

AFAIK, the handbrake efficiency should be at least 16%. Your 50% failure is probably failure to make 50% of that.
Handbrakes on every Sevel van I've had have been poor (and particularly Al-Ko conversions), but they respond to fettling.
Just a tip (though it's a bit controversial safety-wise). The 16% MOT value is the measured braking force as a percentage of the weight of the vehicle as tested. It pays to present it in as light a state as possible to maximise the chance of passing. I empty mine and use it as the annual clear-out opportunity.

Thanks Hughjampton. I presumed incorrectly that it was 50% of normal braking force.
I know how poor the handbrake is. When the van was brand new, drove from the dealers for quite a few miles before I noticed the handbrake was still on. Showed that the 'handbrake on' alarm did not work, fixed since.
Normally the van runs at about 3.1 ton when no water and piles of clothes etc which is how it will go for the MOT.
Afraid if it fails then the garage can sort it out with me watching. Getting too old to be on my knees and under the van now.

 

[gm6vxb]

Glad to say it passed this time. Still some reservations as handbrake travel was up to eight clicks but examiner seemed happy. Did adjust handbrake to about five clciks earlier but handbrake was binding, so backed it off.
Will check when got a few more miles on the clock to see if I can get any closer to four to six clicks.

 

[Communicator]

Glad to say it passed this time. Still some reservations as handbrake travel was up to eight clicks but examiner seemed happy. Did adjust handbrake to about five clciks earlier but handbrake was binding, so backed it off.
Will check when got a few more miles on the clock to see if I can get any closer to four to six clicks.

The Mot for my x244 was last week. I adopted the x250 shoe adjuster setting of five clicks, and checked wheels free to turn. Adjusted at bridle so that at three clicks on lever there was considerable resistance at the wheels. Could not then get more than five clicks at the lever. No comments after test.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi

"Failed MOT on less than 50% efficiency on handbrake"

I thought the handbrake pass threshold was 16%, unless you have a very old setup with single circuit service brakes in which case it's 25%. I guess the reasoning is that these days the handbrake will never be needed as a sole emergency brake.

The efficiency is calculated by dividing the total brake force (i.e. both rear wheels) by the total weight of the vehicle. The weight is normally also measured by the roller brake tester, often one axle at a time.

TBH 16% is a bit poor, and you might find it not enough to hold the vehicle on a steep slope. Nearer 25% would be preferable.

On my own X250 the handbrake seems to work well.

The service (foot) brake efficiency threshold is 50%. Again, this is pretty poor and was established in the 1960's when there were still plenty of prewar cars on the roads with brakes that were rubbish. A modern vehicle should be capable of at least 80%. If the MOT tester measured (say) 52% he would have to pass the vehicle but might alert you that things were below par.

 

[gm6vxb]

Anthony489, I presume the fail was due to being less than 50% of the 16% threshold.
It did pass the second time but would not like to park on a hill with just the handbrake and still find the van in the same position as I left it !!.
Compared to car handbrakes of the same era the van handbrake is abismal.

All discs and pads are now EBC make which do work well, pleased with them, just a shame about the handbrake.