Technical Ducato water ingress

[1stDucato]

At the end of my recent thread "Earth strap issue" concerning my Ducato's failure to start promptly, @Communicator helpfully suggested that I consider the possibility that a failing injector could be the cause.
I eventually plucked up the courage - there is just so much I don't know about these things - to apply sufficient force to the corners of the plastic engine cover to (partially) remove it & was disturbed to find that the channel housing the injectors was awash (photo). The cause seems to be a loose seal between the top of the scuttle(?) & the windscreen above the engine and also water getting through the wiper boss.
I don't know if an injector is failing but I imagine the water could be dripping onto the injector connections. From the degree of rust evident around the base of the injectors this has been happening for some time &, if this is the cause of the poor starting performance, predates my acquisition of the vehicle 3 months ago. What now concerns me is that the injectors will be physically seized & not be replaceable without requiring considerable effort & expense.
I've contacted the dealer I bought it from but pending a response I'd be grateful to know if - assuming that this is not an uncommon problem - there's an engine bay water deflector that I could fit (as I have done at other 'weak' spots) that would at least divert ingressing water away from the rear of the engine block.

 

[jackwhoo]

Yes very common for water ingress problems. if an injector fails you will need a new /reconditioned cylinder head and four new injectors

The injector electrical connectors do not have a reputation for causing problems

 

[lycopersicum]

For reference, I have the same situation under the engine cover. The trough where the injectors live collects water when it rains for a long time and I'm parked at certain angles, and there's a bit of surface corrosion throughout.

If you look to the right of that channel, you should find a drainage hole, maybe yours is blocked?

In my case, this is not causing any issue. I can imagine that it does complicate injector removal. All I can say is a mechanic successfully changed one injector a few years ago and while I was not acquainted with my vehicle at the time, I imagine the water 'problem' had indeed been going on for a long time already.

 

[1stDucato]

If you look to the right of that channel, you should find a drainage hole, maybe yours is blocked?

Thank's for your interest. I'll look for the hole - the fact that one exists suggests Fiat knew their design was faulty in not preventing water ingress if the scuttle seal failed but ignored the issue !

 

[1stDucato]

Yes very common for water ingress problems. if an injector fails you will need a new /reconditioned cylinder head and four new injectors

The injector electrical connectors do not have a reputation for causing problems

Thanks. So if an injector is failing (& causing the poor starting problem) it's likely not due to the water ingress ? And because of the nature of the fix you outline I expect the dealership will be resistant to the idea that they are responsible for the cost despite the fact I've been complaining about the poor starting performance since the day after I took delivery....

 

[jackwhoo]

Thanks. So if an injector is failing (& causing the poor starting problem) it's likely not due to the water ingress ? And because of the nature of the fix you outline I expect the dealership will be resistant to the idea that they are responsible for the cost despite the fact I've been complaining about the poor starting performance since the day after I took delivery....

There can be different reasons for a failing injector .

The water ingress makes removing the injectors more often than not impossible on your engine type without resorting drilling.

From what I've read you do not know the cause of the poor starting.

The dealer is responsible for fixing poor starting whatever the cause if it was present when you purchased vehicle or you can look into your legal rights to return vehicle for a refund.

 

[Communicator]

As @jackwhoo has already stated, rain water ingress in the engine bay is a known problem with x250 and later models. I remember recently seeing positive comments relating to a 3D printed kit on a forum? I think that this may be the kit referred to, but I am not certain. I suggest that you carry out your own research.

 

[jackwhoo]

Recently another forum member posted about starting problems and it turned out they were not waiting for the immobilized light to go out before cranking.

We can't see or hear what is going on with your vehicle starting , perhaps you could post video of starting ?

 

[brokendonkey]

on the 2.3 there is a drain hole in the injector valley which often get blocked. its right at the end of cylinder 4 injector clamp. the water then runs out the hole and congregates by glow plug #4 seizing that in.

The engine cover is a bit naff as it leaves injector 4 fairly uncovered and thats the main part where water leaks off that stupid bit of the scuttle that hangs down.

if its a camper you dont use often then just wrap a bin liner over the top of the engine to keep the water out.

 

[1stDucato]

on the 2.3 there is a drain hole in the injector valley which often get blocked. its right at the end of cylinder 4 injector clamp. the water then runs out the hole and congregates by glow plug #4 seizing that in.

The engine cover is a bit naff as it leaves injector 4 fairly uncovered and thats the main part where water leaks off that stupid bit of the scuttle that hangs down.

if its a camper you dont use often then just wrap a bin liner over the top of the engine to keep the water out.

Yes @lycopersicum kindly pointed out the drain hole yesterday which I've checked is unblocked but the van is of course slightly tilted in the opposite direction! However your helpful addendum re GP#4 will have me checking where the outflow goes on mine. Many thanks.

 

[1stDucato]

As @jackwhoo has already stated, rain water ingress in the engine bay is a known problem with x250 and later models. I remember recently seeing positive comments relating to a 3D printed kit on a forum? I think that this may be the kit referred to, but I am not certain. I suggest that you carry out your own research.

I've already searched for water colectors/deflectors & have fitted 2: one under the central scuttle join & one under the fixed part of the bonnet air intake. I've now made contact via the link you helpfully provided asking about a tray to fit under the driver's side of the scuttle but the company says it's currently overwhelmed with orders/questions etc !

 

[jackwhoo]

Good idea to attempt to fix the water ingress issue. Doing so may protect other components in the longer term.
Sadly the injectors will have already corroded solid into the head over the past 17 years.
More positively the injectors are generally exceedingly reliable especially when fuel system kept clean / regular fills with clean fuel / good quality fuel filter changes.

Please let us know who you get on with starting concerns.

 

[1stDucato]

Good idea to attempt to fix the water ingress issue. Doing so may protect other components in the longer term.
Sadly the injectors will have already corroded solid into the head over the past 17 years.
More positively the injectors are generally exceedingly reliable especially when fuel system kept clean / regular fills with clean fuel / good quality fuel filter changes.

Please let us know who you get on with starting concerns.

Thanks for your continuing interest. Although there is some water getting through the boss of the N/S wiper arm, I've assumed that the main source of the water in the injector channel is through the clear loss of a seal between the windscreen & the top edge of the scuttle & also that the loss hadn't happened 17 years ago. Are you suggesting that even after I deal with the wiper arm path & re-seal the join (or even replace the whole scuttle) water will still find its way into the channel somehow?

 

[jackwhoo]

The injectors will have already become corroded solid with the cylinder head.
Stopping any water ingress to the injector bodies now is a case of shutting the gate after the horse has bolted re this point.

Focussing on finding out why there is a starting problem (if indeed there is a starting problem)would serve you well. If there is something that needs to be replaced or repaired you are more likely to get somewhere with the dealer by addressing it now rather than later. Your purchase was some months ago the longer it goes on the less likely dealer will cooperate .

 

[1stDucato]

The injectors will have already become corroded solid with the cylinder head.
Stopping any water ingress to the injector bodies now is a case of shutting the gate after the horse has bolted re this point.

Focussing on finding out why there is a starting problem (if indeed there is a starting problem)would serve you well. If there is something that needs to be replaced or repaired you are more likely to get somewhere with the dealer by addressing it now rather than later. Your purchase was some months ago the longer it goes on the less likely dealer will cooperate .

I've been in touch with the dealer since taking delivery & am taking the van in on Friday for tests.

 

[jackwhoo]

It will be interesting to hear what tests will be done and what the results are.
@Communicator may be interested especially regarding type of injector tests and results obtained as am I.

 

[lycopersicum]

Thanks for your continuing interest. Although there is some water getting through the boss of the N/S wiper arm, I've assumed that the main source of the water in the injector channel is through the clear loss of a seal between the windscreen & the top edge of the scuttle & also that the loss hadn't happened 17 years ago. Are you suggesting that even after I deal with the wiper arm path & re-seal the join (or even replace the whole scuttle) water will still find its way into the channel somehow?

There are three broad sources of water ingress, bad seal between windshield and scuttle, bad seal between the left and right halves of the scuttle, and overflowing due to blocked/disconnected drains on the left and right ends of the scuttle or just parking angle. Ideally the fix involves enlarging the drains so that they don't block so easily, and maybe even arranging an extra drain or scoop in the middle.

 

[1stDucato]

There are three broad sources of water ingress, bad seal between windshield and scuttle, bad seal between the left and right halves of the scuttle, and overflowing due to blocked/disconnected drains on the left and right ends of the scuttle or just parking angle. Ideally the fix involves enlarging the drains so that they don't block so easily, and maybe even arranging an extra drain or scoop in the middle.

That's very helpful - thank you. I addressed the central scuttle seal both by mastic & an aftermarket drainage under-tray immediately after acquiring the van. I have another tray under the inner half of the bonnet air intake. The drainage pipes I keep clear & seem to be adequate to their task. As I mentioned earlier, I'm looking to do something about the leak through the N/S wiper arm boss & the company @Communicator directed me to could have something suitable.

 

[1stDucato]

Recently another forum member posted about starting problems and it turned out they were not waiting for the immobilized light to go out before cranking.

We can't see or hear what is going on with your vehicle starting , perhaps you could post video of starting ?

Thanks. Yes: I wait 'till the glow plug & immobiliser light (the padlock) go out. Re the former, @brokendonkey referred to GP#4 being the recipient of the water draining from the injector channel but I can't see a glow plug in that position. Could my vehicle have a flame start system rather than GPs ?
I attach a sound track from today's starting attempt - it's in 2 parts as the file was too big. The first cranking sequence was a bit longer than I normally allow & (it often takes 3 attempts). The battery voltage was around 12+v & was 14+v when running.

 

[jackwhoo]

Cranking speed is too slow

Shows that sound recording is worth a thousand , or more, words

You could read battery bolts while it's cranking and report here

After slowing cranking does either battery terminal feel hot /warn -be careful could be hot.

@bugsymike