dragons213
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My 2005 Ducato motohome just failed 1st MOT, Binding brake nearside rear. Very tight, can hardly turn wheel. How do I get drum off, any practical suggestions please?
General Ducato Rear Brakes Binding
- Thread starter dragons213
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General Ducato Rear Brakes Binding
stewartkingswood
Member
Hi,
Not sure if I can assist, however have you checked that the hand brake linkage is not sticking? I know this can be a problem on vehicles not run to often. Also is there a rubber plug on the inside of the brake backplate? this often gives access to the auto adjustment mechanism on some cars.
Not sure if this applies to your van as you haven't stated which model it is.
Hope this is of some assistance, one last thing is it still under warranty?
Regards
Stewart
Not sure if I can assist, however have you checked that the hand brake linkage is not sticking? I know this can be a problem on vehicles not run to often. Also is there a rubber plug on the inside of the brake backplate? this often gives access to the auto adjustment mechanism on some cars.
Not sure if this applies to your van as you haven't stated which model it is.
Hope this is of some assistance, one last thing is it still under warranty?
Regards
Stewart
dragons213
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Thanks for ideas I'll look behind back plate as soon as torrential rain subsides. I've tried the cables and they seem OK.
Not sure if yours will be same, but on my 2003 ducato, to get drum off you have to push a release plate (accessed by using a long screwdriver or similar through one of the wheel nut holes)
I have the little rubber bungs they they were not any use for releasing shoes.
Its a really fiddly operation, but if your looking face on at the drum,put a wheel nut hole at about 7 or 8 oclock, shine a torch through the backplate (by removing the rubber bung), and you will see a metal plate just behind the metal of the brake shoe. push against the plate (push straight on,in towards the van) and it should then automatically spring behind the shoe and release the tension. My drum still needed a little persuading to come off.
To stop my brake binding i just turned the adjuster at the top slightly (you have to lift up the little sprung metal piece in order to move adjuster wheel up towards you)
I used a small angle grinder to gently run around the edge of the drum to take any lip you may have off. and dont forget to pull release plate back into position before you refit drum (drum should go back on easily once lip is removed).
I have the little rubber bungs they they were not any use for releasing shoes.
Its a really fiddly operation, but if your looking face on at the drum,put a wheel nut hole at about 7 or 8 oclock, shine a torch through the backplate (by removing the rubber bung), and you will see a metal plate just behind the metal of the brake shoe. push against the plate (push straight on,in towards the van) and it should then automatically spring behind the shoe and release the tension. My drum still needed a little persuading to come off.
To stop my brake binding i just turned the adjuster at the top slightly (you have to lift up the little sprung metal piece in order to move adjuster wheel up towards you)
I used a small angle grinder to gently run around the edge of the drum to take any lip you may have off. and dont forget to pull release plate back into position before you refit drum (drum should go back on easily once lip is removed).
Had an mot today on 2004 ducato based motor caravan just passed with an advisory for both rear brakes binding.We slackened off handbrake cable but it didn't help.
Does anyone know if the brake cylinders can seize due to lack of use?Will they improve if i pump them a few hundred times?
Do the brake pads swell up from the damp if not used for a long time?
Would it do any good to reset the adjusters?
TIA
David.
Does anyone know if the brake cylinders can seize due to lack of use?Will they improve if i pump them a few hundred times?
Do the brake pads swell up from the damp if not used for a long time?
Would it do any good to reset the adjusters?
TIA
David.
Hi
see previous post on seized handbrake on rear disc models -
https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/225989-handbrake-stuck.html & also a later post on handbrake adjustment -
https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/226607-how-do-you-adjust-ducato-handbrake.html
if it is only fitted with drumbrakes on the rear use the following method to remove the drum & inspect the brakes.
- Remove the rear wheel.
1. Undo the bolts. (1)
2. Remove the brake drum (1a).
If necessary, to facilitate the removal of the brake drum due to rust on the contact surfaces, use three 10 x 1.25 bolts (1b) that should be inserted in the special openings (1c) & tighten each evenly so as to push the drum off the hub
- If the operation proves difficult, loosen the handbrake cable, insert a screwdriver in one of the openings for fastening the wheel and position this opening in line with the handbrake self adjuster. Then rotate the knurled toothed wheel on the self adjuster to wind the shoes away from the drum to release it.
see previous post on seized handbrake on rear disc models -
https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/225989-handbrake-stuck.html & also a later post on handbrake adjustment -
https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/226607-how-do-you-adjust-ducato-handbrake.html
if it is only fitted with drumbrakes on the rear use the following method to remove the drum & inspect the brakes.
- Remove the rear wheel.
1. Undo the bolts. (1)
2. Remove the brake drum (1a).
If necessary, to facilitate the removal of the brake drum due to rust on the contact surfaces, use three 10 x 1.25 bolts (1b) that should be inserted in the special openings (1c) & tighten each evenly so as to push the drum off the hub
- If the operation proves difficult, loosen the handbrake cable, insert a screwdriver in one of the openings for fastening the wheel and position this opening in line with the handbrake self adjuster. Then rotate the knurled toothed wheel on the self adjuster to wind the shoes away from the drum to release it.
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forester
New member
I have a 2003 model and my rear brakes are the top hat type and I must say are also rubbish. Have just replaced the handbrake shoes which are a modification as the old ones used to distort and bind apparently .
forester
I am having similar problems with nearside rear brake on my 2003 Ducato 'Hymer Swing' Motorhome. This one particular rear wheel gets alarmingly hot after even a shortish journey. I have cleaned out the drums, then had them skimmed, also replaced the rear wheel cylinders and shoes but it is still as bad. The van has been in the repairers 5 times in the last month with this problem, but they cannot find anything wrong with the brakes. It certainly isn't lack of use. The brakes are actually very good at their job and don't appear to be binding. I'm thinking it might be the load over this particular wheel being much greater due to the 'fit out' and stowage being installed mainly at the back on that side of the van? I would welcome any suggestions too as it is quite worrying to be able to fry bacon on one wheel after a few miles
when the rest are cool,PeterM
Member
If it is a weight problem then the tyre will be very hot as well as the rim. Is that so?
And a good idea is to go to a Weighbridge. With a bit of persuasion you should be able to get each rear wheel load determined separately.
And a good idea is to go to a Weighbridge. With a bit of persuasion you should be able to get each rear wheel load determined separately.
Tyre wall did get a bit hot too, but that's only conduction heat from the rim which gets mega hot. I couldn't find a local weighbridge, but removed everything out of the van that wasn't screwed down and took it for a good fast (ish) spin on an assortment of roads. It was OK for about 10 miles then I started to hear a metalic scoring / clicking sound start which got a significantly louder when I touched the brakes. When I stopped, sure enough the same back wheel was red hot again but the other three weren't. I let it cool down and then drove home again but only using the brakes to absolute the minimum. It rolled along quite nicely and the wheel remained cool so I don't think it is a wheel bearing.
I then checked the brakes application up on a jack and there's no evidence of it binding or sticking on. It's seems as though the brake line pressure favours that particular wheel over the others. Although they all work too, just don't get more than slightly warm.
I booked it into the garage for the 6th time in as many weeks, but they don't seem to have a clue what's causing it either. I have spent a few hundred pounds now replacing stuff but the cause remains a worrying mystery.
I then checked the brakes application up on a jack and there's no evidence of it binding or sticking on. It's seems as though the brake line pressure favours that particular wheel over the others. Although they all work too, just don't get more than slightly warm.
I booked it into the garage for the 6th time in as many weeks, but they don't seem to have a clue what's causing it either. I have spent a few hundred pounds now replacing stuff but the cause remains a worrying mystery.
Have you checked that the hand brake cable for that particular wheel is not binding on the suspension when under load.
It maybe that with the vehicle loaded with its normal load etc & with suspension movement on that wheel somehow the cable is being tensioned by the suspension movement & thus causing the brake to drag.
Cheers
It maybe that with the vehicle loaded with its normal load etc & with suspension movement on that wheel somehow the cable is being tensioned by the suspension movement & thus causing the brake to drag.
Cheers
I'll have another look underneath when its daylight and stops raining so hard. Having had the whole lot in bits half a dozen times I would have thought the garage mechanics might have spotted something like that. , They only charge £68/hr so I for one expect a degree of expertise. But you never know, this has got everyone scratching their heads.
I spotted something on another forum relating to a similar problem someone was having on a fiat punto car. The cause on their brakes turned out to be the flexible brake pipe liner that had deteriorated internally, such that it was letting the brake fluid into the wheel cylinder under braking pressure, but the tension springs on the shoes could not exert enough pressure to force the fluid back up the pipe very quickly against the restricted bore of the flexible - so the brake dragged on that wheel, giving the impression of a seized wheel cylinder. Now I beleive that situation perfectly matches the criteria of the problems I am having.
After all, that was the problem I first presented the garage with and they couldn't find anything wrong. Subsequent returns with the same issue, everything inside the drums has been replaced both sides except the flexible pipes. Yet the same problem persists and only on that wheel. I think for the cost of a flexible pipe it is worth eliminating that as a possibilty. It goes back in on Friday, I'll let you know how I get on.
I spotted something on another forum relating to a similar problem someone was having on a fiat punto car. The cause on their brakes turned out to be the flexible brake pipe liner that had deteriorated internally, such that it was letting the brake fluid into the wheel cylinder under braking pressure, but the tension springs on the shoes could not exert enough pressure to force the fluid back up the pipe very quickly against the restricted bore of the flexible - so the brake dragged on that wheel, giving the impression of a seized wheel cylinder. Now I beleive that situation perfectly matches the criteria of the problems I am having.
After all, that was the problem I first presented the garage with and they couldn't find anything wrong. Subsequent returns with the same issue, everything inside the drums has been replaced both sides except the flexible pipes. Yet the same problem persists and only on that wheel. I think for the cost of a flexible pipe it is worth eliminating that as a possibilty. It goes back in on Friday, I'll let you know how I get on.
Had simular binding drum on my 2000 model.
Bit of a pig getting the drum off. Cause of the problem was one of the tophat spring retainers had somehow fallen off.
Bit of a pig getting the drum off. Cause of the problem was one of the tophat spring retainers had somehow fallen off.
Well the Ducato's back from the menders again. So far so good this time with the hot wheel syndrome not happening like it was previously when we went out travelling over the last few weekends.
The garage didn't go into specifics on what they did to it this time but having test driven it for a good 20 miles all appears to be in order. The foot brake action is a bit spongier but work OK and the hand brake travel is now a yard past the regulation three notches. So I suspect tha all the have done is slackened everything off to give the shoes a bit more clearance off the drums. Fingers crossed it is mended for good this time.
The garage didn't go into specifics on what they did to it this time but having test driven it for a good 20 miles all appears to be in order. The foot brake action is a bit spongier but work OK and the hand brake travel is now a yard past the regulation three notches. So I suspect tha all the have done is slackened everything off to give the shoes a bit more clearance off the drums. Fingers crossed it is mended for good this time.
Nearside Rear Wheel still binding on 2003 Ducato.
As I suspected, all the garage did was to slacken everything off to stop the nearside wheel binding. The problem now is that it has left me without an effective hand brake.
I found this out when we camped on a slightly sloping site this weekend and it wouldn't even hold on the leveling chocks. The handbrake travel is from horizontal to near vertical at about 8 clicks now.
Checking underneath and applying the handbrake slowly, I could see the travel on the handbrake cross brake cable between the two wheels was significantly more on the off side than it is on the nearside wheel. So after three clicks of the handbrake the nearside wheel is locked up solid but the hand brake on the off side not engaged at all at this point. Even at six clicks of the hand brake the offside wheel is still not fully locked up.
Adjusting the central rod to reduce the travel on the hand brake lever merely makes the nearside wheel bind up altogether. It doesn't take up the cross cable slack evenly. One side pulls up about an inch the other side about two inches.
Is there any individal adjustment that can be made to equalise each wheel hand brake travel within the drum it self?
As I suspected, all the garage did was to slacken everything off to stop the nearside wheel binding. The problem now is that it has left me without an effective hand brake.
I found this out when we camped on a slightly sloping site this weekend and it wouldn't even hold on the leveling chocks. The handbrake travel is from horizontal to near vertical at about 8 clicks now.
Checking underneath and applying the handbrake slowly, I could see the travel on the handbrake cross brake cable between the two wheels was significantly more on the off side than it is on the nearside wheel. So after three clicks of the handbrake the nearside wheel is locked up solid but the hand brake on the off side not engaged at all at this point. Even at six clicks of the hand brake the offside wheel is still not fully locked up.
Adjusting the central rod to reduce the travel on the hand brake lever merely makes the nearside wheel bind up altogether. It doesn't take up the cross cable slack evenly. One side pulls up about an inch the other side about two inches.
Is there any individal adjustment that can be made to equalise each wheel hand brake travel within the drum it self?
yes although they should self adjust.
If I were you I would be giving the garage loads of stick and I'd report them to trading standards. If they carry out MOT's I'd go all the way with this complaint.
Remember, the hand break is also an emergency break to use if the peddle fails.
If I were you I would be giving the garage loads of stick and I'd report them to trading standards. If they carry out MOT's I'd go all the way with this complaint.
Remember, the hand break is also an emergency break to use if the peddle fails.
I finally got the brakes sorted on the camper van. I took it to another garage near where I work and stood over them whilst they stripped it down and I took photos. I was shocked when they took the drums off and showed me that a rather large adjusting bar which is crucial to the brakes function was in fact missing. It is like 6 inches long and as thick as your finger and hardly something you might miss when putting the brakes back together with new parts. It is also impossible for that component to fall off if the brakes had been fitted correctly in the first place and most worrying that they found the thing behind the brakes shoes just rattling about. In short that could have killed us or indeed someone else had it jammed in the callipers. I watched them re-assemble the brakes and properly adjust everything and they have never felt better. It took them less than an hour start to finish and cost £40.
Well I thought about it and took the decision to go back to the garage who did the work in the first place plus allegedly did what ever and made them worse over five separate return visits and confront them with the evidence. The bloke was sweating like a paedophile on a school bus when I dumped the photos on the counter and asked him to spot the deliberate mistake. He was only too keen to reimburse me the £40 and asked if he could keep the photos. I imagine one of his incompetent mechanics will be lucky to still have a job right now and I hope he got a public flogging. One thing's for sure I won't be putting any more of my business their way and I will tell everyone I know not to use them too.
Well I thought about it and took the decision to go back to the garage who did the work in the first place plus allegedly did what ever and made them worse over five separate return visits and confront them with the evidence. The bloke was sweating like a paedophile on a school bus when I dumped the photos on the counter and asked him to spot the deliberate mistake. He was only too keen to reimburse me the £40 and asked if he could keep the photos. I imagine one of his incompetent mechanics will be lucky to still have a job right now and I hope he got a public flogging. One thing's for sure I won't be putting any more of my business their way and I will tell everyone I know not to use them too.
bluenose1875
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I have a 2008 model Ducato based McLouis Tandy 640 motorhome. After 10 months I heard a rubbing/binding noise from offside rear. Took it to Fiat garage where they changed drum under warranty saying it was "out of true". 3 months ago, at about 30 months old and having done 11,000 miles I again heard a noise but this time from the nearside. Took it to Fiat garage again. They told me a brake shoe had "failed" and disintigrated within the drum. A new drum, hub, shoes, pads and ABS sensor were required. Cost to me nearly £900. 3 weeks and 200 miles later i heard noise again. This time my dealer investigated, not the Fiat garage, to find brakes were binding due to improper adjustment. New drum and shoes required. £474. Another 2 weeks and 150 miles later and they are binding again. It has now been in my local Fiat garage for a few days and the service manager opened a technical case with Fiat. Apparently there is a specific way to adjust handbrake. Not exactly sure yet. I know that it includes 5 notches up here, 6 notches back there and a torque wrench on the handbrake nut. Fiat will try this new method out on mine on monday 15th. Will update with results.
bluenose1875
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Fiat garage applied 'new adjustment technique' to my rear brakes and handbrake. It took them 6 days to complete this new method. Drove home and had a brief run out for about 30 miles. Heard very slight noise at first but now seems ok. Going to monitor it for a while.
I have a couple of questions to queries I have which I can't fathom and wondered if anyone can help.
Firstly, why did the ASR turn itself off after about 600 miles completed over 2 days? The Anti Slip Regulator flashes when the engine is started to indicate it is operational. The light then goes out. When the light comes on it is turned off. I smelt a burning of brakes or clutch in the cab. If the rear brake was binding causing the smell, and then the ASR to disengage, would I of of smelt it in the front?
When the rear brake shoe disintigrated, I had just braked quite hard and heard a bang from the rear. The shoes don't operate from the foot pedal, only from the handbrake cable. Why did braking hard damage the shoes?
I have a couple of questions to queries I have which I can't fathom and wondered if anyone can help.
Firstly, why did the ASR turn itself off after about 600 miles completed over 2 days? The Anti Slip Regulator flashes when the engine is started to indicate it is operational. The light then goes out. When the light comes on it is turned off. I smelt a burning of brakes or clutch in the cab. If the rear brake was binding causing the smell, and then the ASR to disengage, would I of of smelt it in the front?
When the rear brake shoe disintigrated, I had just braked quite hard and heard a bang from the rear. The shoes don't operate from the foot pedal, only from the handbrake cable. Why did braking hard damage the shoes?
I had to take the drum off to see what was happening with mine, the sprung metal whasit that holds the knurled adjuster was fitted on the outside so it was impossible to adjust it through the wheel nut holes.
