Technical Ducato 230 Engine Swap > From JTD to TD

[grachal]

Hello folks,
my 2001 Ducato 2.0JTD is annoying me again. It throws a P0191 and dies off every few kilometers when accelerating.

I changed the high pressure pump, and fuel pressure sensor. I suspect one or more bad injectors, but they are stuck stuck and I do not feel like investing any more time in the damn thing. Would rather put in an old mechanical injection 2.5td or 2.8td engine. I know, this is kind of a downgrade, but I love the idea of not having any electronic frippery going on around the motor and in my area this engine can be had for cheap.

Has anybody experience as to how much work such a swap would cause?

 

[bugsymike]

Hello folks,
my 2001 Ducato 2.0JTD is annoying me again. It throws a P0191 and dies off every few kilometers when accelerating.

I changed the high pressure pump, and fuel pressure sensor. I suspect one or more bad injectors, but they are stuck stuck and I do not feel like investing any more time in the damn thing. Would rather put in an old mechanical injection 2.5td or 2.8td engine. I know, this is kind of a downgrade, but I love the idea of not having any electronic frippery going on around the motor and in my area this engine can be had for cheap.

Has anybody experience as to how much work such a swap would cause?

Like you I miss the simplicity of the old 2.5 and 2.8 Sofim engines.
However unless you have a complete identical model to swap over everything, it may just not be viable, others here will probably say the same.
Re the 2.0 litre JTD already in your vehicle, do you know what engine Series it is as it may be worth just getting a good second hand engine for a straight swap.
I have a 2010 Fiat Scudo that uses the Peugeot 2.0 HDi engine which has been used in everything including taxis doing 400k miles etc. They started off as 8 valve engines then 16 which mine has.
I had to replace the high pressure pump on this one which improved things, but I am still trying to trace a rattle which I suspect is the drive between cam and high pressure pump, although it runs well I suspect it was neglected in it's previous life.

 

[grachal]

I invested some more time into diagnosing my fault, but I was not succesful. Injectors seem to be alright, I now suspect the ecu itself maybe.
However, does anybody know if the transmission of my 2001 2.0JTD will bolt onto a 2.8idtd engine?
Could get this unit very cheap, with low mileage, but excluding the drivetrain.
If this fits my gearbox im definitely going for the swap

 

[bugsymike]

I invested some more time into diagnosing my fault, but I was not succesful. Injectors seem to be alright, I now suspect the ecu itself maybe.
However, does anybody know if the transmission of my 2001 2.0JTD will bolt onto a 2.8idtd engine?
Could get this unit very cheap, with low mileage, but excluding the drivetrain.
If this fits my gearbox im definitely going for the swap

I would say very unlikely, I don't know for sure about the earlier 2.0 JTD used in Ducato , but I have a 2010 Scudo with the 2.0 engine and it is Peugeot based.
A suggestion might be to look at S/H gearboxes on eBay to compare the bellhousing design. From memory the 2.8 had a four main bolt fixing to the engine.
Personally I agree the 2.8 is a much stronger engine.

 

[cris1117]

Agree modern diesels are more trouble than they are worth, too much to go wrong and nobody seems to know how to fix them.

Just an afterthought how many miles since the fuel filter was changed I used to have to do mine every 20000 genuine part or 15000 if I used a cheap one, the other thing I know causes this type of fault is the crank sensor.

 

[bugsymike]

As @cris1117 mentions about fuel filter, also depending on what system Bosch or Siemens etc. Bosch I feel is best, however on my 2010 Scudo 2.0 it is Siemens and relies on the high pressure pump to "suck" fuel all the way from the fuel tank with all the problems that can cause, amongst which air leaks on that vacuum side from faulty hoses, joints at clips and most common the primer bulb just by the fuel filter. I know of many with that issue and also had a similar problem with an 03 Doblo with Lucas Epic fuel system, finally located that fault to the fuel pipe plastic clips/ joint seal at the tank unit. No leaks were visible as they, not having the in tank electric low pressure pump don't show a diesel leak.
I proved mine issue by running the vehicle for a short while from a plastic 5 litre can on the wing. It only works for a short test as no fuel return.

 

[grachal]

I am dealing with my fuel pressure problem since I got the Ducato over a year ago. I can be safe to say, that after fiddling a horrendous amont of hours on diagnosing, fixing and replacing parts including the fueltank, every sensor, LP and HP pump, fuel rail, hoses, ECU, gas pedal, one injector (that alone took 4 weeks to remove, because i had to drill it out) there is no simple problem like a fuelfilter (i think i put 6 new ones in over a span of 500 driven kilometers).
Im going to get the 2.8 idTD and check for transmission compability myself.
If not i have to get a new gearbox aswell, doesnt make the deal bad either.

 

[bugsymike]

I am dealing with my fuel pressure problem since I got the Ducato over a year ago. I can be safe to say, that after fiddling a horrendous amont of hours on diagnosing, fixing and replacing parts including the fueltank, every sensor, LP and HP pump, fuel rail, hoses, ECU, gas pedal, one injector (that alone took 4 weeks to remove, because i had to drill it out) there is no simple problem like a fuelfilter (i think i put 6 new ones in over a span of 500 driven kilometers).
Im going to get the 2.8 idTD and check for transmission compability myself.
If not i have to get a new gearbox aswell, doesnt make the deal bad either.

It wasn't particularly the fuel filter, more the whole fuel inlet system up to the filter allowing air in, particularly the primer pump bulb just before the fuel filter.
A direct fuel supply to the high pressure pump as a test can soon eliminate it.
Re the 2.8 unless you have a complete vehicle to swap parts over, I think even with the correct gearbox you will find other stuff like drive shafts and hub bearings etc different as well as engine and gearbox mounts.
I agree it is a much nicer engine if I had the choice, but I suspect there will be a lot of grief doing a swap, although nothing is impossible in the end.

 

[grachal]

Update:
About a week ago I recieved my new engine for the Ducato. A 2.8 IdTD, including gearbox, axle shafts, front suspension parts and all the accessories like alternator, starter, servo pump...
I put a new timing belt, and did some general maintenance.
As the motor is about to go in, a few questions popped up

1. Is it possible to reuse my existing shift linkage/shifting gate. My ducato has reverse left up, the IdTD Transmission has reverse right down.
2. Where do i get vacuum for the breakbooster? The JTD engine had a seperate vacuum pump, the IdTD doesn't have one
3. How does the clutch slave cylinder setup look like. I looked up the correct cylinder online and it just has a small plunger, like my existing one. But on the gearbox I have a big hole in the actuator fork. What part goes there?

 

[bugsymike]

Update:
About a week ago I recieved my new engine for the Ducato. A 2.8 IdTD, including gearbox, axle shafts, front suspension parts and all the accessories like alternator, starter, servo pump...
I put a new timing belt, and did some general maintenance.
As the motor is about to go in, a few questions popped up

1. Is it possible to reuse my existing shift linkage/shifting gate. My ducato has reverse left up, the IdTD Transmission has reverse right down.
2. Where do i get vacuum for the breakbooster? The JTD engine had a seperate vacuum pump, the IdTD doesn't have one
3. How does the clutch slave cylinder setup look like. I looked up the correct cylinder online and it just has a small plunger, like my existing one. But on the gearbox I have a big hole in the actuator fork. What part goes there?

1. Probably not, best to use gear change from matching gearbox vehicle. The least of your problems may be going across gate for top gear and heading towards reverse!!! Bang.
2. On 2.8 you may find the large housing held on to engine with around six bolts? This has the injection pump drive, oil filter and cooler, vacuum pump for brakes and some have the power steering pump also, I know it does on that engine when fitted to an Iveco Daily RWD.
3. Sounds like a cable clutch lever so may be a problem
Also some were pull to disengage type clutches. You would find out when you try to separate engine from gearbox. If that type the clutch release arm pivot pin has to be extracted to collapse lever so release bearing arm disengages from clutch pressure plate
Note this is only if it is a pull to disengage type.

 

[grachal]

Thanks for your answer
1. Okay, I will get ahold of the right shift mechanism
2. Now i found it, it was deleted and blocked of with a blank plate. I already ordered a new pump
3. Seems like its cable operated like you said. Is there a stock hydraulic clutch option for this gearbox and how does it look like? Another type of fork?
If there is no such option i will fabricate an adapter myself to use my existing slave cylinder to convert it to a hydraulic clutch

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for your answer
1. Okay, I will get ahold of the right shift mechanism
2. Now i found it, it was deleted and blocked of with a blank plate. I already ordered a new pump
3. Seems like its cable operated like you said. Is there a stock hydraulic clutch option for this gearbox and how does it look like? Another type of fork?
If there is no such option i will fabricate an adapter myself to use my existing slave cylinder to convert it to a hydraulic clutch

1.OK
2.Have you checked the drive is behind the blank in good order etc. From memory the steering pump fitted on the end nearest the cam belt end.
I had a 1996 2.5 Indirect Injection Sofim engine rated at 80 Hp known as a 35/8 Iveco Daily with manual steering from new and that had the blank plate. Are you sure what engine you have, best in my opinion was the 2.8 iTD Direct Injection 122hp.
3.If you look through the release arm hole in bellhousing hopefully you may tell if it is a push or pull clutch release, depending on that is the direction any hydraulic cylinder needs to work to function, sounds like it may be a problem.

 

[Communicator]

1.OK
2.Have you checked the drive is behind the blank in good order etc. From memory the steering pump fitted on the end nearest the cam belt end.
I had a 1996 2.5 Indirect Injection Sofim engine rated at 80 Hp known as a 35/8 Iveco Daily with manual steering from new and that had the blank plate. Are you sure what engine you have, best in my opinion was the 2.8 iTD Direct Injection 122hp.
3.If you look through the release arm hole in bellhousing hopefully you may tell if it is a push or pull clutch release, depending on that is the direction any hydraulic cylinder needs to work to function, sounds like it may be a problem.

Having looked at it recently, I can confirm that the power steering pump is mounted as stated, below the pulley. eLearn is not very helpful inthis area, as it separates the steering pump and the auxilliary assembly, in both text and diagrams. The Iveco Daily manual is much better.

As regards clutch operation, and having investigated out of curiosity, I find that it depends on which gearbox is used. I have attached the German version of the clutch operation from the downloads section, because one of the relevant diagrams has sections missing in the English version.

 

[bugsymike]

Having looked at it recently, I can confirm that the power steering pump is mounted as stated, below the pulley. eLearn is not very helpful inthis area, as it separates the steering pump and the auxilliary assembly, in both text and diagrams. The Iveco Daily manual is much better.

As regards clutch operation, and having investigated out of curiosity, I find that it depends on which gearbox is used. I have attached the German version of the clutch operation from the downloads section, because one of the relevant diagrams has sections missing in the English version.

In the second pdf german one, the 187 Bild shows the pull clutch release bearing I think, once assembled the first time you operate the clutch arm , from memory the "wrong way" it inserts the bearing into the clutch pressure plate which locks in place with a snap ring, so then the only way to remove gear box from engine is by extracting the clutch release arm pivot shaft after removing a circlip and using a special extractor.
Though again from memory the one I did on a Citroen Relay 3.5 tonne van version with 2.8 Sofim engine, had a cable clutch, it was about 12 years ago
If it is that type the special extractor screws into the end of the shaft, after circlip removed and is then used to draw the shaft out allowing clutch arm to collapse away from release bearing and gearbox to separate from engine.
I did hear of a bodge where someone drilled a hole in line from other end of shaft and with circlip removed used a drift to knock the shaft out, not me I hasten to add!!!

 

[grachal]

Thanks for your comments.
The engine is a Sofim 8140.43, so its the 122hp IdTD variant

The vacuum pump is on its way, the drive gear behind the (handmade) blockoff plate is there and intact.
I also removed the gearbox already. A new clutch is coming in. I have the pull type clutch mechanism. I saw this in another forum, so I knew the pivot pin has to be removed in order to remove the gearbox. This went suprisingly easy, it was not stuck at all.

The clutch used to be cable operated. Im fabricating an adapter, to convert it to hydraulic by using my existing slave cylinder.

 

[grachal]

A few more days went past. The right engine mount was giving me a bit of a struggle, to find the correct part. The left side I was able to reuse my existing one.

But now the motor found its new home and runs very well with just the necessary bits connected at the moment. I decided to leave the ecu in the car, as it handles the relay for the starter motor when the key is turned. Also I want to get the tachometer to run and use the existing glow time relay for triggering the flame start unit.

Here you can see my selfmade clutch actuator bracket

A few questions popped up that need adressing:

1. The JTD had 3 fuellines coming from the filter housing. 2 of them beeing feed lines with one of them including a relief valve in the banjo bolt. Is this necessary to "bleed off" access pressure or can I get rid of the 3rd line and just have the electric pump push as much as it can? On the IdTD itself there are only 2 lines, feed and return

2. The fuelpump primes on key on and also when cranking, but then it shuts off. What kind of signal and where wants the ECU to see in order to keep the electric pump running. I suspect rail pressure? If there is no easy solution I will rewire the electric pump to ignition on. The engine idles fine without the electric pump even running, but it might me a problem once the engine needs to put down power.

3. And maybe someone knows how the JTD rpm gauge works, I really want it to show something

4. How much gearoil and which weight should I put in the transmission in order to not blow 5th gear?

I really like the noise the Iveco unit is making. Sounds raw and hefty

 

[jackwhoo]

Hi,

Great work I'm enjoying your pictures.

As long as you can "suck" fuel through the in fuel tank pump when it is not powered it does not need to be powered to keep that type of injector pump functioning.

You may wish to keep the in tank pump to prime the fuel system when replacing fuel filter.

Best wishes
Jack

 

[bugsymike]

A few more days went past. The right engine mount was giving me a bit of a struggle, to find the correct part. The left side I was able to reuse my existing one.

View attachment 450891

But now the motor found its new home and runs very well with just the necessary bits connected at the moment. I decided to leave the ecu in the car, as it handles the relay for the starter motor when the key is turned. Also I want to get the tachometer to run and use the existing glow time relay for triggering the flame start unit.

View attachment 450890

Here you can see my selfmade clutch actuator bracket

View attachment 450892

A few questions popped up that need adressing:

1. The JTD had 3 fuellines coming from the filter housing. 2 of them beeing feed lines with one of them including a relief valve in the banjo bolt. Is this necessary to "bleed off" access pressure or can I get rid of the 3rd line and just have the electric pump push as much as it can? On the IdTD itself there are only 2 lines, feed and return

2. The fuelpump primes on key on and also when cranking, but then it shuts off. What kind of signal and where wants the ECU to see in order to keep the electric pump running. I suspect rail pressure? If there is no easy solution I will rewire the electric pump to ignition on. The engine idles fine without the electric pump even running, but it might me a problem once the engine needs to put down power.

3. And maybe someone knows how the JTD rpm gauge works, I really want it to show something

4. How much gearoil and which weight should I put in the transmission in order to not blow 5th gear?

I really like the noise the Iveco unit is making. Sounds raw and hefty

As @jackwhoo says, we are enjoying the progress you are making.
Is it possible to use the JTDs crank sensor somewhere to trigger the rev counter?
A lot more "grunty" engine , with loads of low down torque, if you feel the urge for more pull, I adjusted the bolt in the middle of the four injector pipes on the pump until it started to black smoke then adjusted the turbo arm to get rid of the smoke by more boost and so on until I had a quite powerful engine in my boat with no black smoke but lots of power, only a 1/4 turn at a time. Needs the intercooler though.
How did you get on with the gear selection side?
Another thought, engine revs, how do they compare with original engine and I assume the gearbox is correct ratios for the 2.8 as the only thing they don't like is over revving?

 

[jackwhoo]

Of that age of engines rev counters often used the "w" terminal on a suitable alternator

 

[grachal]

Thanks for the positive feedback. Nice to know about the injector pumps "sucking capability". I will try my current setup, with the electric pump just acting as a prime pump.
The JTD sensor counts flywheel teeth, so does the IdTD sensor. But just plugging the IdTD sensor to the JTD cable did not work. I will try to get some electrical schematics, maybe I can make it work with the W on the alternator.

The 2.0JTD did not have an intercooler but I will run one ofcorse. I already heard alot about the engines tuning capabilities

I replaced the gear selector unit as a hole, I got it used for 60€.
The gearbox came with the engine, so the drive ratios should be ok.