Technical Ducato 2004 2.8jtd (8140.43) cuts out after 10 mins

[digger8954]

Hello all,
I wonder if anyone can advise on the following problem.

Engine will start on the key with no issies from cold, will run for approx 10 to 15 mins then cuts out. All ignition lights on the dash are lit as if you are about to start the engine, just as if it would if you had stalled it.
Once it has cut out, it will not restart unless its left to stand for a while, sometimes a few hours, sometimes half an hour and then it will restart. If it restarts after only half an hour of standing then it may only run for a few seconds before cutting out again.
This appears to me to be an issue of something failing once warm, ie, a sensor etc.
I wonder has anyone had the same issue and sorted the problem.
I have read stories of the crank sensor going faulty and shutting things down but didnt want to start swapping things unless sure.
The ecu is not throwing any fault codes or abnormal lights on the dash.
Any help, greatly appreciated. Mark

 

[Anthony489]

Hi Mark

The following might interest you:

https://www.picoauto.com/library/case-studies/2004-fiat-ducato-2-8-jtd-poor-starting

 

[Communicator]

Hi,

As I have said on another thread, posts made by Anthony489, are always worth taking note of, and I am bookmarking the provided link for future reference.

However the linked article deals primarily with poor starting, and digger has not mentined such a problem.

The 2.8 JTD, and probably many other engines only use the camshaft sensor to determine the stroke on startup, and afterwards use the crankshaft sensor.

I agree with digger 's deduction that the fault is probably due to thermal effects., and applaud his wish to not replace items without good reason.

For the engine to cut out without any alarms, suggests somthing basic. The crankshaft sensor fits that description. Other causes could be supply failure to the ECU, or the ECU itself.

In a recent thread jackwhoo said that the crankshaft sesor was reknowned as a cause of failure without raising any alarm codes. I accept Jackwhoo's experience.

Unfortunately, it seems that changing the crankshaft sensor would be a sensible move. If changing the sensor, please note that the clearance is critical. See folowing extract from eLearn.

"To obtain correct signals, the specified distance between phonic wheel and sensor (gap) must be between 0.8 - 1.5 mm.
This distance is not adjustable. If the gap is found to be outside the tolerance limits, check the condition of the sensor and phonic wheel."


digger8954,


Please post the outcome, so as to improve the knowledge base.

 

[Communicator]

With hindsight, perhaps I should have added a small correction.

A 2.8 JTD engine will be type 8140.43s. The number without the "s" is the type number for the earlier (pre 2000) 2.8 idTD mechanical injection version of the engine, which probably would not exhibit the current problem.

 

[Ocwobio]

Also, make sure the fuel tank can breathe- no air in=no fuel out, once low pressure is created in the tank. don't know where the breather is, try it without the fuel cap on?

 

[cris1117]

Typical symptoms of crank sensor breaking down when hot, they are cheap and easy to replace so makes sense to just change it and see.

 

[digger8954]

Hi All, thank you very much for your valued input.
As stated by Comminicator, i have no startup issues what so ever, starts first turn every time when not in fault state. When it is in fault state, no matter how much you crank it, it will not even try to start. Im guessing ecu will cut off the fuel solenoid when it detects the fault, although i have yet to check this is the case.
In reply to communicator regarding the engine type, i was advisd on a previous post that this maybe the engine type after posting a picture when replacing cambelt etc. I was advised that is was either an (s) or type. This unit is electronic injection so i would assume its not an (s) engine but an 8140.43 which is good to know. Again thank you for the sensor clearence info.
Also good to know that the camshaft sensor is only used to identify the stroke on startup, which probably rules it out as being a culprit in this case.

I will read all links provided as im sure, even if they dont relate directly to my problem, it will give me other insight into issues that can or may occur in the future.
Ocwobio, thanks for the input, i will try that, however the vehicle has been running without any tank issies for the past 10 years in my possesion and nothing has been changed. I have read posts on here regarding the tank apearing to have a slight vaccum when removing the fuel cap for deisel and this has been said to be normal?
I have also been advised by a local garage today to check that the fuel pump relay is not breaking down once warm. Not too sure where this would be located. The vehicle is a tag axle motorhome with standard chasis cab. I have relays above the engine and under the fusebox. Anyone know if this has a fuel cut off relay and if so where it is located.
Thanks again all, i sure will post results as i work through it. Cheers, Mark (digger8954)

 

[Communicator]

Hi All, thank you very much for your valued input.
=======================================================
In reply to communicator regarding the engine type, i was advisd on a previous post that this maybe the engine type after posting a picture when replacing cambelt etc. I was advised that is was either an (s) or type. This unit is electronic injection so i would assume its not an (s) engine but an 8140.43 which is good to know. Again thank you for the sensor clearence info.
=======================================================

Cheers, Mark (digger8954)

Mark,

Both the 8143.40s, and 8140.43n engines are 2.8 JTD, with electronically controlled electromagnetic injectors.

I believe that the "power" version was only offered from 2004 to 2006. The 8140.43n has a higher torque, and hence power. Also the torque peaks at a slightly lower rpm, so better pulling power.

The engine cover on my 8140.43s has a label bearing that engine model number. Perhaps your engine still has a similar label?

The difference between the engines is that the 8140.43n has a VGT (variable geometry) turbo, which employs moveable vanes instead of a wastegate. The turbo and its control therefore differ between the engine types, but this is not visible from above.

The fuel pump relay is located in the engine bay fusebox. It will be easier to change than the crankshaft sensor, but while failure is possible, I tend to be sceptical when faulty relays are suggested.

An easy test would be to invoke your fault, switch off ignition, wait a minute, switch ignition on again, and listen for the noise of the fuel pump,

 

[digger8954]

Hi Communicator, thanks for the reply. Mine has a waste gate so 8140.43(s) should be the one but i will check for any idents on the cover.
I am of the same oppinion regarding the relay and whilst i need to confirm, im 99% sure when the fault more is active, i can still hear the fuel pump do its initial prime as normal before i turn the key to start, which of course would rule out the relay. I will confirm to be sure though and am thinking after reading all the above links etc, that a new crank sensor would be a good start and at least then elliminates that from the equation.
I will be back with any and all results
Cheers, Mark