General Dualogic problem or clutch

[Homebrew187]

I bought my daughter a Fiat 500 auto with 127K milage on it. It's been fine for about 5 months, until recently it starting slipping out of gear and going into neutral like most others with these car. I could see the Dualogic unit was leaking, and level was slightly low so topped it up with Selespeed fluid, seem to be ok for short period but kept slipping out of gear. Although the fluid level was still above minimum the problem persisted and a warning light came up on the dash which I looked it up and states gear box failure and message on the cluster saying gear box unavailable.

I couldn't pin point the source of the leak but could just see a general area, I admitted defeat and decided to remove the Dualogic unit. I've stripped it down completely and believe the source of the leak is coming from the sensor at the end of the actuator, although the o-ring seems fine with no obvious wear or tears. I did notice a pool of hydraulic fluid sitting in the end of the actuator that sits directly on top of the gear box, not sure if this should be there or not or if it was just transmission fluid that been sprayed up from the opening at the top of gear box.

None the less I've decided to replace every seal to pre-empt any further leaks from else where and regrease certain areas. I did notice the seals on the two connecting pistons that move the actuator was fairly worn in comparison to the new seals and I believe these seals are under hydraulic pressure to move the pistons back and fourth to change gear so this might have been a cause.

I tested the solenoids with a volt meter and they seem to be ok with the same reading on each one. Also when I removed one of the solenoids I was showered in hydraulic fluid due to the pressure still being inside as I didn't drain the fluid prior to removal hoping It would help me spot the leak. Being completely soaked from head to toe in hydraulic fluid isn't a lot of fun especially when its also in your mouth, but I did see this as a good sign that the accumulator was holding pressure

Anyway getting to the point of this post, I've not removed the lower gear box as I was hoping that the Dualogic is the cause of the problem, however is it possible that the problem is also linked to the clutch plate and while I have everything out should I replace the clutch and fork at the same time. I just didn't want to change to many parts as if the problem persist its hard to know if I've done something wrong or if another part is causing the issue.

In addition, my daughter was told that her rear break light wasn't working and that the hill hold switch had failed at recent MOT so they changed the bulb and it working again. I see on other post that the break switch can also cause an issue with the Dualogic unit.

Is this linked the brake pedal switch behind the pedal or the one behind the passenger side glove box?

 

[Bergi NZ]

Update: sorted itself yesterday.... Able to do clutch relearn and car back to "normal"
Whew! what a relief!

 

[Homebrew187]

Nope after a full rebuild of the robot, the car still slips into nuetral, all the seals replaced, clutch plate, fork and bearing. I've had enough, its dangerous can slip out of gear any time, had to buy another car, while this is just sat here like giant ornament on my drive. Did all the gear learning and clutch bite point, and even replaced the brake pedal switch. Still cant figure out what is the cause is. Anyone here managed to figure out the source of this gear slipping like the many thousands have experienced?

 

[Bergi NZ]

At my wits end trying over several days to perform a clutch relearn on our dualogic Panda, I noticed that the battery earth clamp was closed up before fully gripping the battery post.
I removed it and hacksawed the slot larger.
When refitted i could suddenly reprogram the clutch and had stop start for the first time...! I also removed and refitted the small earth post connection with the 2 wires.
Still at a loss as to what happened, perhaps worth a close look in your car?

 

[Homebrew187]

Are you referring to.the earth stap thay bolts to the bottom the gear box?.

 

[Bergi NZ]

No, the one on the battery itself. Looked fine but was not...

 

[Homebrew187]

How can you tell from looking at it if it externally looks ok?

 

[John202020]

Nope after a full rebuild of the robot, the car still slips into nuetral, all the seals replaced, clutch plate, fork and bearing. I've had enough, its dangerous can slip out of gear any time, had to buy another car, while this is just sat here like giant ornament on my drive. Did all the gear learning and clutch bite point, and even replaced the brake pedal switch. Still cant figure out what is the cause is. Anyone here managed to figure out the source of this gear slipping like the many thousands have experienced?

Does the gearbox slip out of gear in all gears or only one, is there a particular point it does it, IE is it the gearbox or is the actuator being commanded to take out of gear? "Manual " gearboxes only tend to slip out of one gear when they're very worn so if it's any gear and you've reconditioned the controller a guess is something is commanding the shift? Just a thought, maybe real time data may give light on the gear changes

 

[Bergi NZ]

See if the clamp is tight and the gap in it where the bolt tightens it is pinched together or still has a small gap?
John 202020 above has a good suggestion too, have a passenger monitor the parameters in MES in live time while the car's being driven. Something must show up there when it drops into neutral.

 

[Homebrew187]

Does the gearbox slip out of gear in all gears or only one, is there a particular point it does it, IE is it the gearbox or is the actuator being commanded to take out of gear? "Manual " gearboxes only tend to slip out of one gear when they're very worn so if it's any gear and you've reconditioned the controller a guess is something is commanding the shift? Just a thought, maybe real time data may give light on the gear changes

Its random any gear and intermitent, drove for 3hrs nothing, then yestersay drove less then 10 minutes and happend atleast 8 times. Like its got worse, i did watch the live data when I drove it for 3hrs, the lowest the pressure got was 42 bar is this ok? I feel like the accumulilator is holding enough pressure as when I dissasembled the top part of robot and removed one of the solnoids, the hydraulic fluid shot out all over the place under high pressure. My next idea was the pump but like i said the lowest i saw it drop to was 42 bar. Im really at the point where i dont know what else to try, I dont like being beaten on things like this.

 

[portland_bill]

If it is selecting neutral from any gear, it is not an internal fault in the gearbox. The actuators are being commanded to select neutral.
It selects neutral when it thinks you are stopped. What does the speedo do at this time, does it drop to zero?
The mention of the earth cable is potentially relevant. On manual cars, the earth strap will corrode internally, breaking continuity. Usual symptom is intermittent non-start. Sometimes the cable breaks internally, and will make and break connection as he engine rocks on its mountings, over bumps, or power on/off. The cable can appear perfect at each connection. They are aluminium, which gets old and becomes brittle. Replacing the whole cable with a copper one is a good idea.
Are you sure the brake switch is good. Whilst it puts the brake lights on when the pedal is pressed, does it also do this occasionally when it shouldn't? Difficult to identify. A small bulb on a long lead can help.
If you've got MES, and set it to live data, what changes when the gear goes to neutral.
Initially, check all electrical connections, actuator and ECU, especially earths, and the battery cable.
Check all brake light bulbs work, no loose bulbs in their holders.
This is probably something simple, that is commanding the ECU that you've stopped.

Edit: Just rechecked original post. It is a 500. Have you checked the wiring to the tailgate? Known issue is the wires chafe and break, or short. Do you have any issues with any of the electrical functions on the tailgate? Latch, locks, lights.

 

[Bergi NZ]

Your issue sounds like electrical, not mechanical. Remember, ALL the operations of the dualogic ecu and its solenoids come through the battery electrical connections. Here's some pictures of ours. Note that the earth has to be firmly clamped to the post, then it goes to the black box thing. Then through the nut and finally to the earth cable quick connect on the post. All of these must be clean bright metal and firmly tight. There's also an earth connection on top of the dualogic robot with a 13mm bolt.
I'm no expert, but ours only started behaving after I made sure they were tight.