General Dualogic problem or clutch

[Homebrew187]

I bought my daughter a Fiat 500 auto with 127K milage on it. It's been fine for about 5 months, until recently it starting slipping out of gear and going into neutral like most others with these car. I could see the Dualogic unit was leaking, and level was slightly low so topped it up with Selespeed fluid, seem to be ok for short period but kept slipping out of gear. Although the fluid level was still above minimum the problem persisted and a warning light came up on the dash which I looked it up and states gear box failure and message on the cluster saying gear box unavailable.

I couldn't pin point the source of the leak but could just see a general area, I admitted defeat and decided to remove the Dualogic unit. I've stripped it down completely and believe the source of the leak is coming from the sensor at the end of the actuator, although the o-ring seems fine with no obvious wear or tears. I did notice a pool of hydraulic fluid sitting in the end of the actuator that sits directly on top of the gear box, not sure if this should be there or not or if it was just transmission fluid that been sprayed up from the opening at the top of gear box.

None the less I've decided to replace every seal to pre-empt any further leaks from else where and regrease certain areas. I did notice the seals on the two connecting pistons that move the actuator was fairly worn in comparison to the new seals and I believe these seals are under hydraulic pressure to move the pistons back and fourth to change gear so this might have been a cause.

I tested the solenoids with a volt meter and they seem to be ok with the same reading on each one. Also when I removed one of the solenoids I was showered in hydraulic fluid due to the pressure still being inside as I didn't drain the fluid prior to removal hoping It would help me spot the leak. Being completely soaked from head to toe in hydraulic fluid isn't a lot of fun especially when its also in your mouth, but I did see this as a good sign that the accumulator was holding pressure

Anyway getting to the point of this post, I've not removed the lower gear box as I was hoping that the Dualogic is the cause of the problem, however is it possible that the problem is also linked to the clutch plate and while I have everything out should I replace the clutch and fork at the same time. I just didn't want to change to many parts as if the problem persist its hard to know if I've done something wrong or if another part is causing the issue.

In addition, my daughter was told that her rear break light wasn't working and that the hill hold switch had failed at recent MOT so they changed the bulb and it working again. I see on other post that the break switch can also cause an issue with the Dualogic unit.

Is this linked the brake pedal switch behind the pedal or the one behind the passenger side glove box?

 

[portland_bill]

This file is from the Panda manual, but the system is the same on the 500.
It doesn't convert to pdf well, but page 17 shows inputs, which describes brake switch as duplicate.
Have a good read, try to stay sane.

 

[Homebrew187]

This file is from the Panda manual, but the system is the same on the 500.
It doesn't convert to pdf well, but page 17 shows inputs, which describes brake switch as duplicate.
Have a good read, try to stay sane.

Oh jeez where's my rope and nearest bridge, thanks

Any thoughts on changing the clutch also?

 

[jrkitching]

Any thoughts on changing the clutch also?

If I were going to go to all this work to overhaul the actuator, then I'd replace the clutch also. This isn't a part of the car you're ever going to want to revisit in the future. You're going to have to run all the calibration procedures anyway (I'm guessing you've discovered MES by now) and you might as well do this with a fresh clutch.

And full marks to you for having a go. A report back on what you did and what you found could help a lot of folks in the future. There are not many home mechanics, and even fewer garages, with the patience and skill to take this on and the only sensible alternative when faced with an issue like this on a 15+ yr old car is to scrap it.

What you're doing could help a lot of folks get a few more years from ageing dualogics.

By the way, where did you manage to source the seals? Finding a known source of good seals might go some way to encouraging a few others to have a go.

And - before I forget - a very warm welcome to the forum.

 

[Homebrew187]

If I were going to go to all this work to overhaul the actuator, then I'd replace the clutch also. This isn't a part of the car you're ever going to want to revisit in the future. You're going to have to run all the calibration procedures anyway and you might as well do this with a fresh clutch.

And full marks to you for having a go. A report back on what you did and what you found could help a lot of folks in the future. There are not many folks, and even fewer garages, with the patience and skill to take this on and the only sensible alternative when faced with an issue like this on a 15+ yr old car is to scrap it.

What you're doing could help a lot of folks get a few more years from ageing dualogics.

By the way, where did you manage to source the seals?

And - before I forget - a very warm welcome to the forum.

That's what I'm kinda thinking that I might as well since the removal of the dualogic system was not a fun task. So with this out of the way makes life a little easier to remove the remainder of the gear box. Although I've never done a clutch before, but I've never been afraid to give things a go, I've worked on enough cars to feel confident enough to take it on. My only concern is the position of fork and clutch lever position to the dualogic system as its on a spline and has a tolerance level in the mm so I get that wrong I'm going to have another problem with it not changing gears properly and don't want to cause further issues.

My only thinking is if the clutch is worn this will also contribute the gear slip issue, I've not noticed many symptoms that would indicate a faulty clutch, no grinding no burning smell. Although I have noticed you have to rev fairly high before it changes gears but that could be another problem. I believe the clutch removal is the same process for the manual as it is for the auto unless someone can tell me otherwise?

I purchased the seals from a company in Sussex https://www.sussexautos.com/en-us the part number for the complete overhaul kit with all seals is 49424807. There made by a company called Transtec https://transtec.com but they don't sell to a private seller, but if you click on where to buy and put your post code in it will tell you a supplier near you, but that doesn't really matter as it can just be posted to any location anyway. The whole kit is £82.00 plus vat, that's still cheaper then anywhere else I could fine including eBay.

I intend to redo the calibration using MES and yellow ELM 327 connector, I don't have any experience with this software being a Ford owner so that will be interesting. Doe's any recommend filling the hydraulic system back up before I refit it as it's supposed to be a sealed unit and shouldn't leak, I use the word shouldn't . Just wondering as the re-calibration process is to drain the system but its already empty anyway?

P.s Thank you for the welcome message, I wished it was under better circumstances, can't say I'm a lover of Italian automatics, I wished my daughter learned to drive a manual car but she never listens to me because she only cares about how cute the car is

 

[jackwhoo]

Hi,
You have most likely see youtube videos , robot overhall showing modification of clutch push rod to enable adjustable length . This may be significant if your push rod worn.

 

[Homebrew187]

Hi,
You have most likely see youtube videos , robot overhall showing modification of clutch push rod to enable adjustable length . This may be significant if your push rod worn.

The push rod doesn't look to bad, but I have no idea what looked like new so it's hard to compare it and yes I love a video, don't we all The push pin came away with ease from the arm when I removed the dualogic system, advice was to remove the unit out through the top which is bad advice even after removing the right side engine mount, after fighting with it for hours and loosing the will to live, I tried taking it out through the bottom, which took less than 30 secound's, trust me I was cursing at this point but was so dam happy to have the thing out.

The problem is its all very well marking the position of the arm on the spline fork, but if your changing it for a new one these marking hold no value. So how do people know that they have it in the right position?

 

[jackwhoo]

Yep some of the videos are great , find one or two showing adjustable robot push rod and the position parameter needed to met to enable calibration to be competed. It may save you having to do work over again.

 

[Homebrew187]

Yep some of the videos are great , find one or two showing adjustable robot push rod and the position parameter needed to met to enable calibration to be competed. It may save you having to do work over again.

I don't intend to replace the push rod with an adjustable one but will likely reuse the original, as my problem was not with it going into gears, but with it jumping out of gear. If I start messing with this I might cause problems maintaining the gear switch ratio. The problem is I am stuck in 2 minds, change the clutch while the dualogic unit is out and risk causing further issue or put the dualogic system back in and hope that fixes the issue. I don't really care about the additional cost of £70 for new fork and clutch but more so the possibility of making things worse as I don't have experience with replacing clutches.

 

[jackwhoo]

It is very difficult because you dont know the fault causing the robot to select neutral .

Possibly selespeed fluid in the gear position sensor that was leaking? Causing position error?
Possibly clutch position sensor reading due to worn clutch or worn push rod or bent fork shaft or combination of these.
Bad battery or ground strap.
Possibly a lot of things.

You have stripped robot and replaced seals that is the daunting part for most people.

Two choices

-reassemble now and fingers crossed.

-replace clutch (decent brand 3 part kit) and fork assembly. If you do you will need scan tool to "relearn clutch "

Multiecuscan software is very popular for fiat it works well and covers your dualogic ecu

 

[Homebrew187]

It is very difficult because you dont know the fault causing the robot to select neutral .

Possibly selespeed fluid in the gear position sensor that was leaking? Causing position error?
Possibly clutch position sensor reading due to worn clutch or worn push rod or bent fork shaft or combination of these.
Bad battery or ground strap.
Possibly a lot of things.

You have stripped robot and replaced seals that is the daunting part for most people.

Two choices

-reassemble now and fingers crossed.

-replace clutch (decent brand 3 part kit) and fork assembly. If you do you will need scan tool to "relearn clutch "

Multiecuscan software is very popular for fiat it works well and covers your dualogic ecu

I guess I didn't want to change to much in case the problem persist and I cant do a process of elimination, but like you say it could be a combination of many things which result in the overall problem. What we do know is there is 100% a leak, so replacing all the seals seems logical step, this could cause a lack of required pressure to operate correctly and might explain the intermittent issue one minute ok the next it's not. The top part of the robot with the accumulator is holding pressure hence my oil shower when removing the solenoid, but I believe leak was coming from lower part at the end of the actuator nearest to the reservoir due to the amount of fluid that had pooled underneath the sensor. The battery is fairy new and holding the correct voltage the earth strap seem ok 2.

Have you ever rebuilt one of these robots your self?

 

[jackwhoo]

I guess I didn't want to change to much in case the problem persist and I cant do a process of elimination, but like you say it could be a combination of many things which result in the overall problem. What we do know is there is 100% a leak, so replacing all the seals seems logical step, this could cause a lack of required pressure to operate correctly and might explain the intermittent issue one minute ok the next it's not. The top part of the robot with the accumulator is holding pressure hence my oil shower when removing the solenoid, but I believe leak was coming from lower part at the end of the actuator nearest to the reservoir due to the amount of fluid that had pooled underneath the sensor. The battery is fairy new and holding the correct voltage the earth strap seem ok 2.

Have you ever rebuilt one of these robots your self?

Hi,
You have done sensible things in rebuilding robot yourself nothing lost there. The leak you have fixed from sensor is not pressurised fluid.
I haven't rebuilt a robot so impressed you found seal kit and got on with it plus using correct fluid.
I am interest in the system and followed its issues for years hence trying to guide you to the problems/solutions others have found.

In your current position possibly reassemble and see if works. If not you will need multiecuscan set up to "look" at ecu readings to see what is out of range , for instance "clutch position" "gear position"

The sensor that was leaking oil probably contaminated with fluid if it is the gear position sensor-that is not uncommon leak/fault but only you can see yours.

J

 

[jackwhoo]

If earth strap from engine to body is plastic covered type they very often rot internally and fail

 

[portland_bill]

Brake switch issues will cause selection of neutral. AS will bad earth connections at rear lamps. System will not drive with brakes on, so gets confused when speed signal and brake signal contradict.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Oh jeez where's my rope and nearest bridge, thanks

Any thoughts on changing the clutch also?

oooh dont do that. You'll only be done for littering....

 

[Homebrew187]

oooh dont do that. You'll only be done for littering....

True that

So I decided to replace the clutch in the end, this was not a fun task, got stuck on the drive shafts as the buggers did not want to release from the gear box but after a lot of swearing and pulling on a pry bar as if my life depended on it I finally got them out. Next was the removal of the starter motor, I was dubious about his part as the bolts wasn't looking to healthy and looked more round then they did a hexagon, thankfully I got them out and the second bolt is located on the top side of gear box on the auto unlike the manual where you cant even see due to the position of the alternator.

Anyway bunch of other steps of removing numerous other bolts and mounts and it was out. I forgot to take picture of the fork arms, but they looked very worn and almost chrome looking due to the amount of material removed from both the fork and release bearing. I will get a pic uploaded it to this thread soon. The clutch plate didn't look to bad to be fair but then again I have no idea when It was last replaced. The majorly of the wear was on the pressure plate, fork and release bearing. Not sue if this was enough to cause the gear slip. But hopefully after replacing all of the seals on the robot this issue has been resolved,

Fitted the new clutch plate using a clutch alignment tool but cant help but think it looks off center, not sure if it just the angle of the image I took but the pressure plate looks higher up at the bottom to the center spline, your opinions please? I can always remove it and realign it again but those tiny bolts look worn and I feel like the gona snap. Does anyone know the Torq setting for the 6 bolts that hold the pressure plate to fly wheel, I have a feeling its 15nm, but could be wrong?

 

[portland_bill]

True that

Does anyone know the Torq setting for the 6 bolts that hold the pressure plate to fly wheel, I have a feeling its 15nm, but could be wrong?

Panda manual says 1 daNm, which is 10Nm.

 

[Homebrew187]

Panda manual says 1 daNm, which is 10Nm.

Oh crap was wondering I couldn't get near 15nm, might have to remove those an put new ones in.

 

[Homebrew187]

So update on this rebuild of the robot, everything is back in new clutch, robot back on but now got another problem, cant run the cluth bleed or final calibration due to this error om MSC. P1743 clutch sensor, short v+ or open circuit. I've swapped over the sensor same fault, so I swap the connector from the gear shift sensor to the clutch sensor and the problem moves to the gear shift sensor and says theres a short there instead and the clutch sensor works. So i'm thinking its the wires, so removed the whole harness and removed all the sleeve to see if theres any broken wires, but nothing no damage. I've performed a continuty test with a multimeter and reads fine at both ends from the connector to the harness so now Im stumped I have no idea what it can be, all the while i'm getting screamed at because its not fixed and I have no idea what to do now. A new harness is silly money and weeks of waiting again so any ideas would be very helpfull?

 

[Bergi NZ]

Did you ever get this error sorted and perform the clutch re calibration?
I'm having similar issues after clutch/flywheel replacement.
Keep getting intermittent clutch disc rpm error message. Therefore won't calibrate. About to pour petrol over it and strike a match