Technical DUALOGIC HELP

[NEWBIEDUALOGIC]

Hi all, I just purchased a Fiat Panda Eleganza 2010 with a dualogic gear box. Its got low milage and has good service history. Also, there are no warning lights, etc. Tyres have all been checked, etc.

This is my first semi automatic car and I am having some "issues" which I feel are concerns, or could be concerns. I need someone more experienced to confirm if these are actually concerns, or could turn into bigger problems.

My dualogic gearbox seems to have a mind of its own!

Up hills it stays in 1st gear and is screaming to the top, regardless of the length or steepness of the hill. Once at the top, it stays in 1st for some time as it doesn't seem to register the change in terrain. It screams and eventually goes into second, but sounds like it's going to explode . This isnt just on a steep hill, but on long flatter "hills" which arent even steep and need a gear change to increase speed. I frequently have a line of cars behind me as the gear doesn't change!

Secondly, on flats its sometimes ok and then other times it has no gear/speed consistency. I can be doing 40mph in gear 2, or doing 20mph in gear 5. The higher gear/low speed really seems to stiffen the steering wheel and feels like its harder to control or almost "heavy". Once the gear lower the steering wheel feels lighter again.

Sometimes the gears are smooth and ok, but I dont trust this on a motorway as it feels like the gears never match my speed.

Today, I was doing 15mph and it was already in 3rd gear, then 20 and it was in 5th. When I needed to speed up for the 40mph speed limit it felt like It had no acceleration left to give, and was lagging big time. When i tried to slow down for bends it felt like my gears where fighting against me and pushing me forward....if that makes any sense!!

Ive reported all these issues (and more) to the seller and I am told this is the "characteristics" of a dualogic gearbox. Surely this isnt just characteristics. How am i meant to do top speeds when im already in 5th gear at 20mph haha.

I understand the lag on hills, but not the unnecessarily high gears on a flat at lower speeds.

This isnt always the case and sometimes seems okay....then ill do the same journey again and the gears are all over and the car feels like controlled.

Its so unpredictable and I wouldnt want to deal with that on a long motorway. I always feel like I have to park up and "reset" the gears. I obviously cant do that on our long motorways, nor should i have to ha.

Any guidance/advice would be great



Is this normal or is this a concern??

 

[bugsymike]

I know nothing specific about "duologic autos", just 55 years Motortrade, so other Forum Members here can advise more.
I would say it is definitely faulty, and the seller is being economical with the truth.
From what you say the car is dangerous to drive in busy traffic, plus the fault is going to damage the engine also with the loadings it is putting on it.
Unless you bought it very cheap with the faults clearly declared in the advert, I would sling it back before you get a large bill to repair!

 

[jackwhoo]

Low mileage ? How many miles?

Regardless of the miles the car is clearly faulty and should be returned to dealer for a full refund.

The cost to fix the transmition faults will far out way the cost of the car.
Do not get another dualogic , they are good when working well and under fiat warranty other wise forget it.

There is a massively long thread on this forum regarding dualogic problems.

Put it in writing to dealer that you are rejecting car as dangerously faulty and you want full refund.

 

[MrMagoo]

Experienced similar and the fault codes suggested an rpm sensor.
I periodically spray all the gearbox electrical connectors with contact cleaner.
Panda does not like damp weather!

 

[koalar]

No idea

Steering stiffening depending on what gear your in

20mph in 5th is 700 rpm in a 1.2 ?

Plus no error codes

Is the eco button pressed

Does it shift gears correctly in manual mode

 

[NEWBIEDUALOGIC]

I know nothing specific about "duologic autos", just 55 years Motortrade, so other Forum Members here can advise more.
I would say it is definitely faulty, and the seller is being economical with the truth.
From what you say the car is dangerous to drive in busy traffic, plus the fault is going to damage the engine also with the loadings it is putting on it.
Unless you bought it very cheap with the faults clearly declared in the advert, I would sling it back before you get a large bill to repair!

Thank you so much! I have stated all you have mentioned above and i feel I am being completely gaslighted or fobbed off. It wasnt cheap. I paid 4.5k because of the good service history and the "excellent" condition. This garage/partner is very well known on social media and has a very large following. They are also a trusted dealer on Autotrader, so I trusted their reputation and paid the price for a "reliable" car with cheap insurance.I felt somewhat protected by both of those aspects. The service history looks great on paper and the car looks in good condition. I started mentioning all these concerns only 2 days after purchase and have been made to feel like i am incompetent because im inexperienced with dualogics and because it's an "older car". The advert stated its "excellent". The dealer apparently used it for a few months and had "no issues". These faults are not always evident on small journeys, so it has been hard to substantiate my claims and ive had to take videos to evidence, but I am still being ignored. I was then told to return the car (after 2 months of emails/calls) to review, but I am expected to pay for recovery (£160+) or to drive it over 50 miles down the motorway which i am unwilling to do as its unsafe in my opinion. This place offers a delivery service and i kindly picked it up, so i dont understand why they wont collect. I was second guessing myself because of the comments made about the "characteristics". There are other faults too, like the pedal sensor reaction and the indicator not staying on to complete a turn, or not going on at all. However, the gears are my main concern. I did notice that I am using more petrol and i definitely think this is a big factor. I REALLY appreciate your guidance. I am contacting the right places about this, but its so drawn out and costly. I have only had this car 3 months and still have warranty. Its very frustrating. I was told that this was discussed with a dualogic specialist technician and this is the "characteristics". This was told to me 6 weeks after purchase and after constant chasing. I initially attempted to get a full refund but was told to "keep driving it to get familiar" with this model and to make contact if nothing changes. When i continued chasing they then spoke to a specialist and said this is usual for the gearbox . I now get no response or the phone put down. If you know anywhere i can take this car/send evidence to substantiate my claims by a "specialist" please let me know.

Thanks again

 

[MrMagoo]

Post a video of it's a behaviour

 

[NEWBIEDUALOGIC]

Low mileage ? How many miles?

Regardless of the miles the car is clearly faulty and should be returned to dealer for a full refund.

The cost to fix the transmition faults will far out way the cost of the car.
Do not get another dualogic , they are good when working well and under fiat warranty other wise forget it.

There is a massively long thread on this forum regarding dualogic problems.

Put it in writing to dealer that you are rejecting car as dangerously faulty and you want full refund.

That is my next step. I have already done all of this via email, but unfortunately there is a legal route you have to take. If they ignore my final request....then court is the only options, but that comes with fees and added time. Its so unnecessarily drawn out. The garage doesnt need this loss or reputational risk? It makes no sense. This is why i wanted advice as they clearly think im in the wrong or surely they wouldn't be so unwilling to help?

The car has 32k.

Service history looks great. This is why i paid a little more as I wanted something reliable and wasnt bothered about the aesthetic. I even got a trusty friend to check the history and he even said it was good!

I have second guessed myself so much but knew it wasnt right! You can feel if a car doesn't drive right....but its proving that without videos ha.

 

[bugsymike]

That is my next step. I have already done all of this via email, but unfortunately there is a legal route you have to take. If they ignore my final request....then court is the only options, but that comes with fees and added time. Its so unnecessarily drawn out. The garage doesnt need this loss or reputational risk? It makes no sense. This is why i wanted advice as they clearly think im in the wrong or surely they wouldn't be so unwilling to help?

The car has 32k.

Service history looks great. This is why i paid a little more as I wanted something reliable and wasnt bothered about the aesthetic. I even got a trusty friend to check the history and he even said it was good!

I have second guessed myself so much but knew it wasnt right! You can feel if a car doesn't drive right....but its proving that without videos ha.

I would say Legal advice and maybe a full report from an independent engineer is the next route, I trust you have records of all your correspondence with the seller.

 

[MrMagoo]

I dont understand your statement, "it's proving that without videos".
You haven't demonstrated that it is faulty.

 

[NEWBIEDUALOGIC]

No idea

Steering stiffening depending on what gear your in

20mph in 5th is 700 rpm in a 1.2 ?

Plus no error codes

Is the eco button pressed

Does it shift gears correctly in manual mode

Ive tried it with and without the Eco button and no change.

I only use manual when it wont change gear itself....after a hill and it sounds like it's dying

I would say Legal advice and maybe a full report from an independent engineer is the next route, I trust you have records of all your correspondence with the seller.

I do, and autotrader and trading standards. Its just frustration and money i dont have!

 

[NEWBIEDUALOGIC]

I dont understand your statement, "it's proving that without videos".
You haven't demonstrated that it is faulty.

I meant I told him all this via email/calls but he wasnt satisfied, so I have had to attempt to get video evidence which is hard when my Mother is the "camera man" ha. I did send the videos I captured, but no reply. Every "fault" i mentioned was fobbed off.

 

[bugsymike]

I meant I told him all this via email/calls but he wasnt satisfied, so I have had to attempt to get video evidence which is hard when my Mother is the "camera man" ha. I did send the videos I captured, but no reply. Every "fault" i mentioned was fobbed off.

A solicitors letter might concentrate his mind!
A lot of car salesmen adopt the "White line Warranty" procedure, as in as soon as your car crosses the white in the road the warranty has expired.
A bit like politicians, all over you at the the start then never hear from them again.

 

[koalar]

As it drives fine in manual, there's no worries driving it back

 

[NEWBIEDUALOGIC]

As it drives fine in manual, there's no worries driving

 

[MrMagoo]

Did you buy it on credit? If so, you can put it into credit card dispute and cease payments until the issue is resolved.

If you haven't got it on credit then I suggest you get it checked by a FIAT dealer, and forward the report on to the seller.

If they then refuse to act appropriately, you use the Sales of Goods Act 1979, to make a claim against them, and potential court action.

Keep a detailed log of all communication with the seller.

 

[jrkitching]

I paid 4.5k because of the good service history

That is a ludicrous price to pay for a 14 yr old Panda.

I would say it is definitely faulty

So would I.

I would also say that repairing it properly is likely to cost more than the car's value.

The service history looks great on paper and the car looks in good condition.

It doesn't matter how good it looks on paper or how unblemished its appearance, a 14 yr old Panda with a major transmission fault is essentially worthless.

In the OP's position. I would do everything in my power to reject the car and get as much of my money back as possible.

 

[rmjbn1]

I think if I needed an automatic car I would make sure I got a genuine torque converter gearbox Eg Suzuki Splash.

All of these automated manual transmissions might be reasonably reliable when new, but the seals in the robot seem to give up after around 10 years.

I do find it strange that there are so few places prepared to repair them, when it seems to be a case of stripping, cleaning and replacing the seals.

The one and only Dualogic failure thread | FIAT 500 (2007+)

Unless you know they were using Fiat specific software I’d be reluctant to pull out the gearbox. Find a Dualogic specialist near to you.

www.fiatforum.com

 

[bugsymike]

I think if I needed an automatic car I would make sure I got a genuine torque converter gearbox Eg Suzuki Splash.

All of these automated manual transmissions might be reasonably reliable when new, but the seals in the robot seem to give up after around 10 years.

I do find it strange that there are so few places prepared to repair them, when it seems to be a case of stripping, cleaning and replacing the seals.

The one and only Dualogic failure thread | FIAT 500 (2007+)

Unless you know they were using Fiat specific software I’d be reluctant to pull out the gearbox. Find a Dualogic specialist near to you.

www.fiatforum.com

I was at a Mechanics show some years ago and they were showing how "easy" it was to fit and set up a VW DSG clutch, fair enough the guy did it in about 30 minutes all clean and brand new on the bench, but the special tools required at the time cost about £1000 and the chances of doing enough of them on a regular basis to get your money back seemed slim , even assuming you wanted to do the job and the customer was prepared to pay around £2000 that seemed to be the price including parts and labour back then didn't encourage me to get involved
In the old days the Borg Warner 35's etc. used to to go on for ever and all the big American cars did many thousands of miles with little trouble, nowadays they don't seem to be able to keep them out of the garages.
My sister had a Ford with CVT box , Dealer serviced from new, at 60 K it failed and even back then they wanted 2K to fix it. Having said that she has run a couple of Honda Jazz's with no problem.
It is quite common to see Ducato Autos in the auction as non runners, often from Councils so regularly serviced at our expense

 

[dagdromer]

Special tools can often be hired or loaned at the local parts store. So no need to buy an expensive tool to do the job yourself.