same platform as the Mini Countryman F60 sat on my drive which is one of the most comfortable cars i've ever driven, despite its 18 inch runflat tyres.... Honestly the tyres/wheels are not the be all and end all.
Technical “Downgrading” to Pop steel wheels possible?
- Thread starter Samuel D
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Technical “Downgrading” to Pop steel wheels possible?
same platform as the Mini Countryman F60 sat on my drive which is one of the most comfortable cars i've ever driven, despite its 18 inch runflat tyres.... Honestly the tyres/wheels are not the be all and end all.
The rental had 17-inch alloys with slightly overinflated tyres (0.3 bars) according to the pressure monitors. (Why do rental companies always over-inflate tyres?)
Ride quality was very poor for a premium car. So was interior noise with only 3,000 km on the clock. I think cars are getting noisier as manufacturers try to cut weight, although bafflingly the FWD F40 is even heavier than the F20.
Have a look at your own flesh jiggling the next time you’re in your Mini. Vibration = fatigue.
The F40 thumps over every blemish. Sure, the thump is taut and bass-heavy, but it’s objectively rough and loud and frequent all the same. And all to achieve less body roll than makes any difference outside the Nürburgring.
Scrambling around a rough wet corner in the real world would be smoother and faster on tyres with more sidewall, plus the greater slip angles would give you a clue about the traction limit.
Then there’s the automation that makes a hassle of simple things like jumping in and taking off. Mirrors that point at the ground when you select reverse, an electric handbrake that takes seconds to disengage (or engage), headlamps that won’t turn off when commanded (“not while driving”), and worse. Nothing responds directly but is filtered through software. Lots of “computer says no” nonsense. Typical of many cars now, of course.
This ultimate driving machine is huge and ill-defined on the outside but cramped on the inside. There isn’t much clear volume in the cabin, so moving always hits a protrusion – the huge arm rest, the intrusive dash, the massive and oddly located B-pillar. Seats are far too wide. Fussy generic euro-design everywhere.
It’s also electronic-feeling in the worst way. It feels like browsing a website today: you’re constantly fighting the machine. Little can be controlled by touch without looking at what you’re doing. Displays react slowly or disappear as you stare at them, compounding the feeling of not being quite in control. There’s a row of flat buttons that don’t reveal their state to eye or fingertip. The many steering-wheel buttons all feel the same. Basic things like the trip computer are buried in slow-response menus.
Just to adjust the fan speed requires pushing a teeny button – that looks and feels identical to buttons beside it – while observing a minuscule icon on a digital display to see what setting you’ve selected. (Think signal-strength icon on a smartphone.) The fan speed ramps so slowly – more ‘quality’ bull**** – that you can’t use its pitch for feedback as you push the soggy button. Honestly, I wouldn’t allow this control scheme on safety grounds if I was the regulator. That BMW of all companies chose to make it this way slightly amazed me. Maybe you’re supposed to set everything on auto and never touch a thing?
Meanwhile, alarms and blindspot indicators were constantly going off, especially in ancient Italian villages with literal two-inch clearances or on the Autostrade under the occasionally necessary heavy braking. Premium? More like hysterical. Clearly these proximity sensors are calibrated for an imaginary world of Teutonic space and order.
The whole thing convinced me that premium German cars have their priorities all wrong and car reviewers have uncritically followed them, mysteriously brainwashed.
Does what I dislike help clarify what I like in a car?
Ride quality was very poor for a premium car. So was interior noise with only 3,000 km on the clock. I think cars are getting noisier as manufacturers try to cut weight, although bafflingly the FWD F40 is even heavier than the F20.
Have a look at your own flesh jiggling the next time you’re in your Mini. Vibration = fatigue.
The F40 thumps over every blemish. Sure, the thump is taut and bass-heavy, but it’s objectively rough and loud and frequent all the same. And all to achieve less body roll than makes any difference outside the Nürburgring.
Scrambling around a rough wet corner in the real world would be smoother and faster on tyres with more sidewall, plus the greater slip angles would give you a clue about the traction limit.
Then there’s the automation that makes a hassle of simple things like jumping in and taking off. Mirrors that point at the ground when you select reverse, an electric handbrake that takes seconds to disengage (or engage), headlamps that won’t turn off when commanded (“not while driving”), and worse. Nothing responds directly but is filtered through software. Lots of “computer says no” nonsense. Typical of many cars now, of course.
This ultimate driving machine is huge and ill-defined on the outside but cramped on the inside. There isn’t much clear volume in the cabin, so moving always hits a protrusion – the huge arm rest, the intrusive dash, the massive and oddly located B-pillar. Seats are far too wide. Fussy generic euro-design everywhere.
It’s also electronic-feeling in the worst way. It feels like browsing a website today: you’re constantly fighting the machine. Little can be controlled by touch without looking at what you’re doing. Displays react slowly or disappear as you stare at them, compounding the feeling of not being quite in control. There’s a row of flat buttons that don’t reveal their state to eye or fingertip. The many steering-wheel buttons all feel the same. Basic things like the trip computer are buried in slow-response menus.
Just to adjust the fan speed requires pushing a teeny button – that looks and feels identical to buttons beside it – while observing a minuscule icon on a digital display to see what setting you’ve selected. (Think signal-strength icon on a smartphone.) The fan speed ramps so slowly – more ‘quality’ bull**** – that you can’t use its pitch for feedback as you push the soggy button. Honestly, I wouldn’t allow this control scheme on safety grounds if I was the regulator. That BMW of all companies chose to make it this way slightly amazed me. Maybe you’re supposed to set everything on auto and never touch a thing?
Meanwhile, alarms and blindspot indicators were constantly going off, especially in ancient Italian villages with literal two-inch clearances or on the Autostrade under the occasionally necessary heavy braking. Premium? More like hysterical. Clearly these proximity sensors are calibrated for an imaginary world of Teutonic space and order.
The whole thing convinced me that premium German cars have their priorities all wrong and car reviewers have uncritically followed them, mysteriously brainwashed.
Does what I dislike help clarify what I like in a car?
You’ve missed my point, non of the above is reflective of the Countryman, yet it’s the same platform, the point being it’s how everything is set up and tuned that makes the car ride very differently.
There is no flesh “jiggle” in the Countryman, that actually made me laugh. I’ve driven it all the way to Paris and back and then a touch more and never been tried, more likely to fall asleep because you get too comfortable, huge and very quiet cabin, the buttons and gizmos are obviously very different between a bmw and a mini. The point is not to focus on all that stuff and point out that the same basic chassis can have a very different ride depending on how it’s set up.
Weight can play a big part in how a car rides, little cars can always be a little bouncy and lights, getting easily blown about and every little bump feels like a crater, where as a heavier car resists movements of the suspension a lot more. Bigger wheels can skip over smaller pot holes compared to a small wheel etc.
There’s little point writing an essay about what you don’t like, if you want a 500 then go test one out!
There is no flesh “jiggle” in the Countryman, that actually made me laugh. I’ve driven it all the way to Paris and back and then a touch more and never been tried, more likely to fall asleep because you get too comfortable, huge and very quiet cabin, the buttons and gizmos are obviously very different between a bmw and a mini. The point is not to focus on all that stuff and point out that the same basic chassis can have a very different ride depending on how it’s set up.
Weight can play a big part in how a car rides, little cars can always be a little bouncy and lights, getting easily blown about and every little bump feels like a crater, where as a heavier car resists movements of the suspension a lot more. Bigger wheels can skip over smaller pot holes compared to a small wheel etc.
There’s little point writing an essay about what you don’t like, if you want a 500 then go test one out!
The overall wheel/tyre combination isn't bigger.
The rolling diameter will be close to identical. The smaller wheel with higher profile tyres will have better pothole performance.
If you need to drive on indifferent roads, this alone is more than enough reason to specify 14" steels over 15" alloys. If the worst does happen, steels are easily and cheaply replaced; alloys less so.
If you want to see if you can tell the difference between 15" alloys and 14" steels, go test drive a new 1.2 pop and lounge back to back. In terms of anything which could affect the ride/handling, the only difference between the two is the wheel/tyre combination.
If the OP is definitely going to buy a lounge, I'd suggest taking delivery with the stock wheels. You might find you can live with it, and if not, you can always buy steels later. If for any reason you do need to sell early, you'll likely take a big hit financially if the car doesn't have standard wheels.
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TrevC
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Sensible advice as ever JRK. When I used to commute to work it was usually in my Lounge (Twinair engine) which I specced to have 16" alloys, because I liked the "sportier" appearence. I sometimes travelled in a workmate's Twinair model, which had 15" alloys. There was a noticeable improvement in ride comfort in his car. I've never been in a car with 14" so can't comment. However, as I said above my wife's current 500C on 15's was improved by all season tyres.
In addition to this point about circumference staying about the same, there is the effect of a differently shaped contact patch.
As wheels get bigger, the tyres often get wider (e.g. 175 > 185 > 195 mm on the Fiat 500). Wider tyres at the same pressure have a shorter contact patch. (And on the Fiat 500, as on many cars, the wider, lower-profile tyres need higher inflation pressure, shortening the contact patch further.) So the smaller wheels with taller tyres average surface roughness over a longer patch of ground. Put another way, they climb at a shallower angle over bumps.
The narrower, longer contact patch also has better water-displacement characteristics, especially with standing water (aquaplaning risk).
I doubt most buyers know the half of this. The trend toward extreme low-profile tyres in passenger cars is pretty weird. Who would have predicted this 25 years ago?
You've both taken what I said out of context, I was comparing the small wheels on small cars with big wheels fitted to big cars, I've quoted myself above.
I don't suspect the circumference or diameter are the same between the big wheels on something like a mini countryman which was my example and the smaller wheels of a Fiat 500.
and just to make that point see below
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One argument from an admittedly very different car - the Ducato.
Quite a few people have replaced the 15 or 16" standard wheels with 18" wheels with wider, lower height tyres. Outer diameter being the same.
The main diffeence is that the 18" tyres are specified for a much lower air pressure (3 bar) where the original ones are specified around 4.5 or higher.
Everyone there reports a sighificant improvement in comfort and handling with the 18" wheels.
Why the big delta in pressure is possible I don't know. The smaller tyres seem to need the higher pressure to keep the sidewalls stable (which, if it is true, should apply to every other car and size as well). Since the pressure is normally specified by the tyre manufacturer for a given load (renowned manufacturers publish these tables), the argument might work.
Quite a few people have replaced the 15 or 16" standard wheels with 18" wheels with wider, lower height tyres. Outer diameter being the same.
The main diffeence is that the 18" tyres are specified for a much lower air pressure (3 bar) where the original ones are specified around 4.5 or higher.
Everyone there reports a sighificant improvement in comfort and handling with the 18" wheels.
Why the big delta in pressure is possible I don't know. The smaller tyres seem to need the higher pressure to keep the sidewalls stable (which, if it is true, should apply to every other car and size as well). Since the pressure is normally specified by the tyre manufacturer for a given load (renowned manufacturers publish these tables), the argument might work.
AGH1965
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Harsh? In my opion the front springs of the 500 are much too soft. With a 500 you have to take speed bumps at walking pace, because if you don't, then the front bumper touches the road surfice and even if it doesn't, you will hear sounds that give you the impression you're about to loose the front wheels plus suspension. I only have experience with the 2nd generation C1, but with that car you can take speed bumps at a normal low speed without any problem. To be clear, I like my 500, but not its front suspension.
I see. Well, I disagree with speed bumps on principle: they’re fuel-wasting, car-rattling, particulate-generating things that wouldn’t be necessary if drivers could be trusted to read speed signs or were forced to by, say, speed cameras. But I have a feeling your low speed and my low speed are different.
AGH1965
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No, I don't think so. With my 500 I have to take speed bumps much slower than allowed. That annoys me so much that I even make additional miles to avoid them.
I could happily go over them at 20-25 mph in my old 500 30 was a bit harsh depending on the bump but bearable on the avarage tarmac one
I'd your front bumper was hitting the ground at 30 over bumps I think you must of had serious suspension set up problems
AGH1965
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Serious suspension setup problems? My current 500 behaves only slightly better than my previous one. In my opinion this is normal behaviour for a 500.
By the way, may current 500 has 16" wheels where my previous one had 15" wheels. So bigger wheels doesn't mean worse at all.
I guess you mean 30 mph. It is probably a coincidence, but here in my country we have lots of speed bumps in areas where the speed limit is 30 km/h, i.e. 18.6 mph. These are the speed bumps I referred to, because these are really a problem for a 500, but not for most other cars.
AGH1965
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Nope.
I have had a similar experience with the 17 inch wheels on my 500L Trekking. They are great around town, but kind of wear on your body on highway trips. We now use our Honda Accord for all out-of-town trips (gets better gas mileage, too). Some of the respondents say your complaint is "subjective". Maybe, but it's not subjective if body parts start to hurt after a couple of hours on the road (I am 70 and my joints are not what they used to be). I have wondered if the touring style tires with smaller rims would help. I love my 500L, but wish I could drive it on out-of-town trips more.
Brigodee
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Samual. What a fantastic rant, I laughed for the first time since the coronavirus struck.
Recently I was sitting in the passanger seat of my daughter's BMW Behemoth when she got out of the driver's seat, forgetting to put on the handbrake. Two young children had driven her temporarily insane, so not her fault. As it began to roll slowly forwards I looked for the handbrake, in vain. Following the inevitable low speed contact with the car in front I was astonished to discover that the handbrake is a small flat button near the gear lever.
Last month I got rid of my Tipo and bought a 4 years old Panda Pop 1.2 as I longed for a return to a simpler vehicle, a decision I rejoice in each and every day. Love the steel wheels. Being careful not to kerb the tipo's alloys was so stressful.
Recently I was sitting in the passanger seat of my daughter's BMW Behemoth when she got out of the driver's seat, forgetting to put on the handbrake. Two young children had driven her temporarily insane, so not her fault. As it began to roll slowly forwards I looked for the handbrake, in vain. Following the inevitable low speed contact with the car in front I was astonished to discover that the handbrake is a small flat button near the gear lever.
Last month I got rid of my Tipo and bought a 4 years old Panda Pop 1.2 as I longed for a return to a simpler vehicle, a decision I rejoice in each and every day. Love the steel wheels. Being careful not to kerb the tipo's alloys was so stressful.
Glad someone read it!
Even if you’d managed to pull the right button in your daughter’s car (that flat button pulls up like an electric window button, as you figured out in the end), it might not have reacted quickly enough. It’s not like a manual handbrake that can be yanked up immediately. A motor starts groaning and eventually engages the handbrake – on one setting, all or nothing, it should be added. So you can’t do as I do when parking on flat Paris streets: give just enough handbrake to stop the car rolling, but not enough to prevent it moving out of the way if someone nudges your car while parking their own, a common occurrence here but not, of course, in Bavaria.
A mechanically competent, risk-aware, advanced driver has reason to prefer the manual way of doing things. For example, if the engine won’t start but you must move the car quickly – stuck on a railroad crossing maybe – you can put the car in first or reverse gear and crank the starter motor to pull you out of trouble. Not possible with an automated push-button starter or various dubious safety devices.
When driving on motorways and having to slow suddenly, in some circumstances I prefer to brake gently at first to waken up a tailgating driver with the brake lights, possibly even flashing them once, before doing the bulk of the braking a little later than usual. This technique put the BMW in a tizzy, as you can imagine.
There are many other examples. I prefer direct control unless the automation is unusually well thought through and offers a compelling benefit.
