Technical Do I *need* an alloy sump with a standard engine?

[Noah500]

So, I've got a standard (I think) 499cc engine on my 500L, with standard sump. Would an alloy sump be a big benefit or would it essentially be to say 'look, I've got an allow sump'?

If worth it, what size? I'm assuming that the larger ones (4/4.5 litres) probably wouldn't be necessary but I've seen other ones at 3 or 3.5 litres (not sure what the standard sump holds?).

Examples:

• Autobella 3 litre (though it is out of stock)
• fiat500spareparts 3.5 litre
• Motobambino 3.5 litre (looks like a better casting)
• fiat500spareparts 4 litre
• fiat500spareparts 4.5 litre

Cheers,

Simon

 

[the hobbler]

So, I've got a standard (I think) 499cc engine on my 500L, with standard sump. Would an alloy sump be a big benefit or would it essentially be to say 'look, I've got an allow sump'?

If worth it, what size? I'm assuming that the larger ones (4/4.5 litres) probably wouldn't be necessary but I've seen other ones at 3 or 3.5 litres (not sure what the standard sump holds?).

Examples:

• Autobella 3 litre (though it is out of stock)
• fiat500spareparts 3.5 litre
• Motobambino 3.5 litre (looks like a better casting)
• fiat500spareparts 4 litre
• fiat500spareparts 4.5 litre

Cheers,

Simon

The honest answer is NO, on a perfectly standard 500 engine you do not need an alloy sump. However, by fitting the 3-1/2 litre alloy sump (and inthe UK you definitely do not need anything bigger) the engine will look a little bit smarter, and when the car is moving run a bit cooler. If fitted with silicon sealer instead of the rubberoid (NOT the cork variety) gasket, the crankcase will be stiffened up a bit. Normally, the sumps can be purchased 'bare' (i.e.no ABARTH or GIANNINI cast into them)
I say when the car is moving because the alloy sumps (with VERY few exceptions) do not have a double bottom (as the standard sumps have) that can have cool air blown through it when the car is stationary with the engine running. The sump marketed by 'Motobambino' will be perfectly adequate.
If you DO fit an alloy sump, you will need slightly longer retaining screws---I use 20mm x 6mm stainless cap-head screws from "Westfield Fasteners", but there are other sources. I also retain the standard Fiat serrated 'sprung' washers. When (and if) you use the silicon sealer,only put it on the OUTER half of the sump flange and carefully around the screw holes---this way, no silicon should be squeezed out into the sump.
The standard Fiat 500 steel sump holds a fraction under 3-1/2 PINTS

 

[Noah500]

Thanks for the quick reply, Hobbler. Makes sense - if the standard is 3.5 pints the a 3.5 litre one is getting on for twice the capacity, hence better cooling. I'll see how the finances look after Christmas

 

[gordinir8]

Thanks for the quick reply, Hobbler. Makes sense - if the standard is 3.5 pints the a 3.5 litre one is getting on for twice the capacity, hence better cooling. I'll see how the finances look after Christmas

I have the 3.5litter and located in hot climate (Greece), when moving it can reduce temp to about 2-3°C (i have a temp gauge installed) but also it is better because you have more oil inside your engine. Have in mind that in a hot day and while moving at traffic temp goes to about 105°C With oil cooler you can drop temp another 10°C Also ABARTH, Giannini etc logo gives you a couple of HP more

 

[Noah500]

a couple more bhp if the Abarth logo is painted

 

[gordinir8]

a couple more bhp if the Abarth logo is painted

 

[gordinir8]

Yep, i can confirm that.

 

[Noah500]

@gordinir8 a couple of questions, if I may:

1. Is that the oil temperature sensor on the right of the picture?
2. Is the drain plug in the middle?
3. How much lower does the sump hang down than the standard one?
4. Can you still support the engine by putting a jack under an alloy sump?

Thanks in advance!

Simon

 

[gordinir8]

@gordinir8 a couple of questions, if I may:

1. Is that the oil temperature sensor on the right of the picture?
2. Is the drain plug in the middle?
3. How much lower does the sump hang down than the standard one?
4. Can you still support the engine by putting a jack under an alloy sump?

Thanks in advance!

Simon

Correct, oil temp sender on the side, you just have to drill and open a thread M14 iirc. Drain plug at the middle. You can support it, it is pretty solid, done it many times. It is about 5 cm lower if I am not wrong but still lot of clearance. Attached it without flange, just permatex gasket maker.

 

[Noah500]

Correct, oil temp sender on the side, you just have to drill and open a thread M14 iirc. Drain plug at the middle. You can support it, it is pretty solid, done it many times. It is about 5 cm lower if I am not wrong but still lot of clearance. Attached it without flange, just permatex gasket maker.

Thanks!

 

[lazylobster]

My experience is that they are great on the move, but not as good when stuck in traffic. I sit there and watch the oil temp head north. Once moving it comes down quick.

I think Nanni did an alloy sump with the in-built, yes they do, link below and if I was buying today I would deffo consider this option. As I do spend a lot of my time zipping around town.

Sump Fiat 500 Fiat 126 light alloy Giannini NANNI with central air crossing way 3,5 liters.

Fiat 500 Sport - Sump Fiat 500 Fiat 126 light alloy Giannini NANNI with central air crossing way 3,5 liters. - Nanni Ricambi Bologna. Ricambi e accessori corsa.

www.fiat500sport.com

to be honest, millions of 500's were made using the original sump and used with no problems in the hot Italian summer. So . . ????

R

 

[the hobbler]

My experience is that they are great on the move, but not as good when stuck in traffic. I sit there and watch the oil temp head north. Once moving it comes down quick.

I think Nanni did an alloy sump with the in-built, yes they do, link below and if I was buying today I would deffo consider this option. As I do spend a lot of my time zipping around town.

Sump Fiat 500 Fiat 126 light alloy Giannini NANNI with central air crossing way 3,5 liters.

Fiat 500 Sport - Sump Fiat 500 Fiat 126 light alloy Giannini NANNI with central air crossing way 3,5 liters. - Nanni Ricambi Bologna. Ricambi e accessori corsa.

www.fiat500sport.com

to be honest, millions of 500's were made using the original sump and used with no problems in the hot Italian summer. So . . ????

R

To confirm Thomas's (Gordinir8) comment re lifting the engine on the sump, yes you can, safely. However, what might be wise is to do what I have done and make a wooden 'plate' (19mm ply will suffice) the sits on top of the jack head, and under the sump. I made a ring of 12mm square dowling on the underside of the plate so that it locates correctly on the jack-head.

 

[Noah500]

Ah, interesting - thanks!

A general point - all of the options appear to be sumps which drop down lower than the original; can you still use the standard dipstick?

 

[lazylobster]

Ah, interesting - thanks!

A general point - all of the options appear to be sumps which drop down lower than the original; can you still use the standard dipstick?

Yes.

 

[gordinir8]

Ah, interesting - thanks!

A general point - all of the options appear to be sumps which drop down lower than the original; can you still use the standard dipstick?

At list in my case oil was out of site so I put 2.5 liters in, check dipstick and made a mark for lower level ,then added another litter of oil and made a new mark for top.

 

[the hobbler]

Ah, interesting - thanks!

A general point - all of the options appear to be sumps which drop down lower than the original; can you still use the standard dipstick?

Yes, you can still use the standard dip-stick. I do, and use the original 'max' mark as my current 'max' mark.

 

[Noah500]

OK... Santa Claus says "yes" so, even though I can see it's not essential, I've treated myself. Should be arriving from Motobambino tomorrow. Also ordered some Permatex and some longer cap head bolts.

Not sure when I will get round to fitting it, but any tips? I'm assuming run the engine to warm it up a bit then drain the old oil before removing the old sump. Any other things to look out for?

Also, what about fitting the new sump: what torque settings and tightening order on the bolts (especially given that this is alloy and not the standard steel, so the torque may be different)?

Finally, any tips for painting up the raised Abarth lettering?

Thanks in advance!

 

[gordinir8]

No need to warm up the engine oil will come off either way. Torque should be around 35 in/lb, that's about standard M6 screw torque. A good tight with screwdriver is around 36 in/lb to give you an idea. You can use enamel red paint and a brush like humbrol paint that model makers use. Just add 2.5 litters of oil wait 5 minutes and check your dipstick to see if it is at the lower point, then add another litter to check your max. Nothing fancy its a simple task.
Thomas

 

[Noah500]

Thanks, Thomas. Any thoughts on which order to tighten the bolts?

 

[gordinir8]

Just cross tight and do it in three stages start from low torque, actually there is nothing to bend here and specially with no gasket it is pretty solid. I remember though it was very very hard to remove because of the sealant but eventually came out.