Technical Cooked wiring loom.

[MacScrims]

Help!!!! Morag, our motorhome has cooked her wiring loom. the fuses on the sidelights have melted and having spent the best part of the day taking the dash to bits, the wiring loom between the ignition and the glovebox fuse box looks shot. I hoped that I could just run a few new wires but it looks like the whole thing needs replacing.
Although a 1998 model she is too good to scrap, has just had a new clutch and some bodywork done. She is a 2.8 idtd with a good strong engine. Does anyone know if I can get a new/ second hand loom? Also, does anyone know of any auto electric engineers in Dumfries and Galloway/ South West Scotland area who may be able to help?Can anyone help?

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[MacScrims]

On the starter solenoid usually there is the main heavy starter lead from the battery positive and a smaller wire that should trigger the solenoid, if that wire had battery positive to it it should turn the engine over , but it will not start if the ignition is off, normally.
I use the word normally as I understand you have had some "slight " wiring issues, so basically van in neutral, hand brake on and just flick the wire across the positive battery terminal and engine should crank until you release it.
Given your wiring issues I advise the main earth lead on battery is on but not tight so if anything bad happens you can pull it off quickly.
Assuming all wiring is OK and lights come up on ignition as normal engine should fire up.

The smaller wire showed current passing to solenoid when ignition on. Just to be clear- do I attach jump lead to smaller or larger positive wire? I’m not usually so thick- honest!
Tip about loosening battery earth a good one thanks.

 

[bugsymike]

The smaller wire showed current passing to solenoid when ignition on. Just to be clear- do I attach jump lead to smaller or larger positive wire? I’m not usually so thick- honest!
Tip about loosening battery earth a good one thanks.

The smaller terminal on the starter solenoid is the trigger, the larger one is the main starter lead from the battery positive terminal so will be live all ready,
in the photo below the large terminal at the top is the main power from the battery positive which if you put a voltmeter on it and the other test lead to vehicle earth you will see battery voltage.
The little terminal a bit down and to the right on the same solenoid is the trigger wire, it will be easiest if you have a length of wire with a small crocodile clip to attach it making sure it isn't touching anything else, then the other end of the wire when touched to the battery positive should make the starter turn the engine.
Re the tip about leaving a loose battery terminal, not my first rodeo as they say.

 

[MacScrims]

Thanks, all clear now. Finished for the evening as I expect we will be having another thunderstorm shortly

 

[Communicator]

The smaller wire showed current passing to solenoid when ignition on. Just to be clear- do I attach jump lead to smaller or larger positive wire? I’m not usually so thick- honest!
Tip about loosening battery earth a good one thanks.

Please take care. There should be no current flow into the small terminal on the starter solenoid, until you turn the key to the start position.

 

[bugsymike]

Please take care. There should be no current flow into the small terminal on the starter solenoid, until you turn the key to the start position.

Is the brown wire at #19 that he has misplaced the same one OP is talking about now. I don't know anything about the wiring loom issues?
My guidance was regarding activating the starter without instruction from the key by a temporary wire just touched to the battery positive to activate the starter solenoid. Presumably if there was power to that already then the starter would be trying to turn?
Do you feel the brown wire at that junction box that he has misplaced is the one that he needs to activate the starter solenoid.
From his comments that the lights were all coming up on the dashboard but he couldn't get the starter to activate, from that I thought it was just a way of maybe getting the engine to fire up to run tests etc.?
Something I have done many times , often where a suspect ignition switch is the problem, not providing feed to the starter solenoid when key activated..

 

[Communicator]

Is the brown wire at #19 that he has misplaced the same one OP is talking about now. I don't know anything about the wiring loom issues?
My guidance was regarding activating the starter without instruction from the key by a temporary wire just touched to the battery positive to activate the starter solenoid. Presumably if there was power to that already then the starter would be trying to turn?
Do you feel the brown wire at that junction box that he has misplaced is the one that he needs to activate the starter solenoid.
From his comments that the lights were all coming up on the dashboard but he couldn't get the starter to activate, from that I thought it was just a way of maybe getting the engine to fire up to run tests etc.?
Something I have done many times , often where a suspect ignition switch is the problem, not providing feed to the starter solenoid when key activated..

Also, I have noticed that this wire appears to have disappeared as I have changed the wires. It could have been a mistake but I was so careful of getting it wrong I double and triple checked everything. It was attached to the glow plug fuse.

I find it interesting that there is a glow plug fuse. The diagrams that I have for the x230 do not show one,

 

[Communicator]

Is the brown wire at #19 that he has misplaced the same one OP is talking about now. I don't know anything about the wiring loom issues?
My guidance was regarding activating the starter without instruction from the key by a temporary wire just touched to the battery positive to activate the starter solenoid. Presumably if there was power to that already then the starter would be trying to turn?
Do you feel the brown wire at that junction box that he has misplaced is the one that he needs to activate the starter solenoid.
From his comments that the lights were all coming up on the dashboard but he couldn't get the starter to activate, from that I thought it was just a way of maybe getting the engine to fire up to run tests etc.?
Something I have done many times , often where a suspect ignition switch is the problem, not providing feed to the starter solenoid when key activated..

The hour was late, but I was concerned that if there is already a partial feed to the solenoid, then it may not release if operated.
The operate current will be much greater than the holding current. Typically the solenoid has two windings, with a high current one in series with the motor. This first winding is shorted out by the solenoid contacts when it operates. I would not expect the lower current holding winding to operate the solenoid on its own.

 

[bugsymike]

The hour was late, but I was concerned that if there is already a partial feed to the solenoid, then it may not release if operated.

I agree wiring is still a bit suspect, that is why I suggested leave battery terminal loose so he could yank it off if necessary.

 

[MacScrims]

Hello. I’ve followed your thread this morning. I have tried to start the engine using the wire across the solenoid straight to the live battery. There is no attempt to turn the engine but there is a click noise each time I remove the wire from the battery. It isn’t the wire breaking contact. It sounds like the click of a starter.

On another note, I’ve located the missing wire and it was a red herring. It was just for heated mirrors. Also, having gone through everything again my comments on the glow plug fuse in the fuse box were nonsense. There isn’t one. What was I thinking?

On the plus side, there appears to be no smoking wires, smell of burning or anything else when trying your suggestions.

 

[bugsymike]

Hello. I’ve followed your thread this morning. I have tried to start the engine using the wire across the solenoid straight to the live battery. There is no attempt to turn the engine but there is a click noise each time I remove the wire from the battery. It isn’t the wire breaking contact. It sounds like the click of a starter.

On another note, I’ve located the missing wire and it was a red herring. It was just for heated mirrors. Also, having gone through everything again my comments on the glow plug fuse in the fuse box were nonsense. There isn’t one. What was I thinking?

On the plus side, there appears to be no smoking wires, smell of burning or anything else when trying your suggestions.

So flat battery or duff starter? Or the main power and earth leads, assuming you didn't make the loose battery terminal too loose.
I assume engine hasn't been standing so long it has seized up.

 

[MacScrims]

Battery is fine. Earth leads all look good. I was wondering if starter had packed up. Can you suggest where I could get another?

 

[bugsymike]

Battery is fine. Earth leads all look good. I was wondering if starter had packed up. Can you suggest where I could get another?

Make sure it is that first, there are lots on eBay from £50 to £150 new, but there is a lot of rubbish about.
It may even be a poor connection,.
I would take it off and test it with a good set of jump leads and a battery, we used to connect it up as wired on the vehicle and then just use a screwdriver to bridge from the thick live wire to the thin solenoid "trigger" wire, put your foot on it as they can kick about.

 

[MacScrims]

Will do. Thanks.

 

[Communicator]

Make sure it is that first, there are lots on eBay from £50 to £150 new, but there is a lot of rubbish about.
It may even be a poor connection,.
I would take it off and test it with a good set of jump leads and a battery, we used to connect it up as wired on the vehicle and then just use a screwdriver to bridge from the thick live wire to the thin solenoid "trigger" wire, put your foot on it as they can kick about.

Do not keep motor running off load for long. Starter motors have a series field connection, and this causes them to run very fast when unloaded.

 

[MacScrims]

Hello, I have removed the starter motor and attached jump leads as per instruction then bridging the gap between the two positives. There was absolutely nothing doing. I will purchase a new starter motor and keep you informed of progress.

 

[bugsymike]

Hello, I have removed the starter motor and attached jump leads as per instruction then bridging the gap between the two positives. There was absolutely nothing doing. I will purchase a new starter motor and keep you informed of progress.

So with jump leads from a good battery you put the negative on the frame of the starter and the negative on the battery and the positive red jump lead on the positive on the battery and on the large terminal on the starter solenoid, at which point nothing should happen until you take a feed wire from that large positive solenoid terminal and touch the small terminal on the solenoid at which point the starter should leap in to action.
If not a final test is to take the red positive jump lead and touch it to the other large terminal on the solenoid if you can without touching/shorting against anything else, I would then expect the starter to spin but not to "pre engage" as you are bypassing the solenoid which pulls the pre engage part in as it connects.
By doing this I test to see if the starter is totally knackered or if it is just the solenoid which in some cases it is possible to change a bit cheaper.

 

[MacScrims]

Hello, I have removed the starter motor and attached jump leads as per instruction then bridging the gap between the two positives. There was absolutely nothing doing. I will purchase a new starter motor and keep you informed of progress.

 

[bugsymike]

Hello, I have removed the starter motor and attached jump leads as per instruction then bridging the gap between the two positives. There was absolutely nothing doing. I will purchase a new starter motor and keep you informed of progress.

I am sure you have done it correctly, it is just strange as normally you get one of three things happen, a good starter will engage and spin with the first test, then the second test if solenoid is faulty will either make a noise and have tiny spark from solenoid unless solenoid windings dead and the third test if solenoid is faulty is the starter will spin but the gear doesn't engage due to the faulty solenoid which you have then bypassed.
Yours seems to have done none of the above, generally either the solenoid or the actual motor of the starter will do something.
Are you sure your test battery is good, I don't want you to buy a starter you may not need that is why I ask?

 

[MacScrims]

My battery is in good condition according to the charger, the volt meter and the green light in the battery. It was new last autumn. I gave it another go and checked that power going through the jump leads and power across the terminals. I tried the negative jump leads on the negative terminal and on the casing but there is still absolutely nothing from the starter motor itself…. very perplexing.

 

[bugsymike]

My battery is in good condition according to the charger, the volt meter and the green light in the battery. It was new last autumn. I gave it another go and checked that power going through the jump leads and power across the terminals. I tried the negative jump leads on the negative terminal and on the casing but there is still absolutely nothing from the starter motor itself…. very perplexing.

Very strange, no small sparks even when you made connections?
Try a wide blade screwdriver and turn the teeth on on the starter gear to make the starter armature be in a different position in relation to the starter brushes, then try the test with the jump leads again, it is very strange there is no electrical connection.
Other than a test with a different battery I don't know what else to try, I have done the process I described with success for over fifty years and got some kind of reaction.