General Cold/damp weather starting problems

[Beancounter]

Good morning all

Our wee Panda seems to be a bit reluctant to shake it's ar*e in the morning. The Wife managed to drain the battery yesterday whilst trying to start him

The engine wanted to kick in a few times but, despite various uses of the choke, didn't. Still nothing after using Halfords Damp Start and Easy Start.

The night before was quite cold, open skies so there was a lot of dampness and condensation which we assume are to blame.

We got the battery re-charged at about 7.00pm last night and he started first turn of the key.

Might be worth pointing out that during the day I whipped the spark plugs out to give them a quick clean (was hoping to change them, but couldn't find any replacements yesterday) and plugs 1 and 4, the two on the LHS of the engine, were not even in finger tight so that won't have helped the starting.

I've yet to start the car today and am obviously hoping that the problem is/was down to loose plugs, but just in case, I'm hoping some of you more knowlegable folks might be able to give me a steer

The car is a D-Reg FIRE engine so I'm told. Carbed variety. Distributer cap, HT leads and vacuum advance unit were all changed in Feb this year. Car has since done about 10k miles.

Thanks in advance

 

[Nuova500]

Sound suspiciously like your battery, because as soon as you recharged it all was fine. Having said that we had a D reg a few years back which was a pig to start in the damp and like you I changed everything. My current car starts first time in any weather and any time. I just wonder, the older FIRE lumps such as yours should use only leaded fuel, this hasnt been available for years now and maybe you are suffering from that now?

 

[christopher watson]

I just wonder, the older FIRE lumps such as yours should use only leaded fuel, this hasnt been available for years now and maybe you are suffering from that now?

Unleaded with a fuel additive is probably worth trying

 

[Steven]

Hmm, I thought all FIRE engines ran ok on unleaded. My first FIRE engine was in a 1985 Uno, my previous Uno, a 1984 car had one of the last 903cc pushrod units. Being a relatively new engine design, just when unleaded was being rolled out, I'd be surprised if they weren't designed to take it from the start. I've never used leaded fuel in FIRE engine.

 

[BenW]

Was the choke all the way out? Mine won't start if its fully out. The choke has two 'stops', i asume one just moves the accelerator and one makes the mixture richer. I bring it out to just past the first stop and it starts everytime on a cold morning

 

[default_user]

Take a look at this thread:
Linky

It may have a bearing on your problem too. It's a very simple fix.

 

[Alan.D]

That little pipe wont help with starting but cold weather running if you know what i mean as it will just be as cold as the rest of the engine till the manifold heats up if you catch my drift.

By the sounds of it you have had this car for quite a while, I take it this is the first time you have had any problems?

The plugs being loose may have had a bearing on not being very well earthed so the spark wouldn't be as strong, the HT leads may also have been loosing a good connection and removing replacing has helped with the connection. There are lots of possible reasons but sounds as if you have nailed it for now. Try later on tonight when it's damp & cold and if you have any problems let us know.

Oh just a last point, initially when starting the car keep the choke off for a few turns so it doesn't flood then pull it out gradually till it fires.

 

[Nuova500]

Apparently the very first FIRE engines were OK for unleaded, but Fiat did a large batch for leaded only, its weird I know but totally true. It was around the time of the D reg cars and only affected a few thousand.

 

[Tony M]

Apparently the very first FIRE engines were OK for unleaded, but Fiat did a large batch for leaded only, its weird I know but totally true.

Sounds about right... cut the quality of the alloy of the valves until they melt and fall off...

 

[Pandarus]

I used to have horrendous problems starting my leaded 903 D reg Uno.

Touch wood (not Torchwood, Jim), the 750 FIRE starts first time - turn the key with no choke, as it fires blip the throttle and then pull out the choke about halfway. Never failed yet. Touch wood.

Russ

 

[Alan.D]

That's a lot of wood touching maybe a fettish of yours

 

[Beancounter]

I just wonder, the older FIRE lumps such as yours should use only leaded fuel, this hasnt been available for years now and maybe you are suffering from that now?

I couldn't honestly talk about the fuel history. We've only owned our wee Panda for the last year and in that time it's been run exclusively on regular unleaded

Unleaded with a fuel additive is probably worth trying

Will do

Was the choke all the way out? Mine won't start if its fully out. The choke has two 'stops', i asume one just moves the accelerator and one makes the mixture richer. I bring it out to just past the first stop and it starts everytime on a cold morning

We altered the use of the choke as we tried to start. Normally I find the car starts better without the choke, using the accelerator to keep it alive.

I'll bear in mind your points when trying tonight

Take a look at this thread:
Linky

It may have a bearing on your problem too. It's a very simple fix.p

We definitely need to get that sorted. I replace the corrugated piping, but the plunger is knackered and leaving the cold air draw open permanently

By the sounds of it you have had this car for quite a while, I take it this is the first time you have had any problems?

The plugs being loose may have had a bearing on not being very well earthed so the spark wouldn't be as strong, the HT leads may also have been loosing a good connection and removing replacing has helped with the connection. There are lots of possible reasons but sounds as if you have nailed it for now. Try later on tonight when it's damp & cold and if you have any problems let us know.

Oh just a last point, initially when starting the car keep the choke off for a few turns so it doesn't flood then pull it out gradually till it fires.

Had the car just over a year now. TBH, it's always been a pain to start in the colder months.

At the start of the year we systematically replaced the HT leads, distributor cap and vacuum unit. Each change made the starting process a little easier.

However, even during Summer, if the car was left standing for a week, it would be a bit hesitate to start when asked.

The plugs look in decent condition too, no fouling.

 

[Chas Uno]

Apparently the very first FIRE engines were OK for unleaded, but Fiat did a large batch for leaded only, its weird I know but totally true. It was around the time of the D reg cars and only affected a few thousand.

FIRE engines use an alloy head, so all had to have valve inserts fitted. The Haynes manual has details of engine numbers that FIRE engines could use unleaded with. From engine serial number 156A2.000 onwards, all 999cc FIRE engines could use unleaded. I assume that 749cc FIRES were also able to run unleaded at the same time?

I've had two 999cc FIRE engined Unos, both 'D' reg and both always run on unleaded with no problems. My current FIRE is a May '86 model and runs fine on unleaded with ignition timing set to 2 degrees BTDC.

As for the poor starting, have you changed the contact breakers and condensor Beancounter? I'm fairly sure all the older FIRE engined Pandas used contact breakers except for the 4x4 which used the electronic ignition as used on all FIRE engined Unos.

A badly gapped or burn out points will cause starting problems, as will a dying condensor though they also tend to cause misfiring.

I'd change those if you're still having problems, and maybe think about upgrading to an electronic distributor from a scrap Uno/ later Panda. They're fairly easy to wire in and make for very reliable starting

 

[Nuova500]

before you go down changing your ignition, there is absolutely no truth that electronic ignition will make easier starting. A properly set up points system is perfectly reliable, but needs regular attention to ensure the gap is constant etc. My car will start even if the gap is hardly noticable (but then runs badly) and alike if you can drive a bus through the gap it will still start OK. Start from scratch and check everything, points gap and condition, renew condenser as its cheap, check the timing, just do all the things mentioned. What colour are your plugs after a good run, they should be a light browny colour... if white the mixture is too weak, if black its too rich. Both wont help your starting. Try testing the compression too.
Having said all that, our old FIRE Panda had everything done and was still a bitch in the damp.

 

[Chas Uno]

before you go down changing your ignition, there is absolutely no truth that electronic ignition will make easier starting.

Electronic ignition systems run at higher voltages than breaker type ignitions, therefore the spark is stronger, more consistant and as a result improves starting in certain conditions.

A properly set up points system is perfectly reliable, but needs regular attention to ensure the gap is constant etc. My car will start even if the gap is hardly noticable (but then runs badly) and alike if you can drive a bus through the gap it will still start OK.

Totally agree with you. From 1988 to 1998 all my cars had contact breakers, and none of them failed to start because of ignition problems. That was in part because I regularly checked and changed the appropriate parts when needed to keep the ignition in tip top condition. However, many of my friends had nothing but problems with breaker type ignition, because as you rightly pointed out they need regular maintenance. Breaker points will pit and burn after a time affecting the gap, and condensors eventually start to fail leading to poor starting and running.

The advantage of electronic ignition is that they are virtually maintenance free. Once the timing is set there is little else you can do to them, other than keep an eye on the rotor arm and distributor cap. Every service I check the timing on my Uno only to find out that it is still set perfectly!

I certainly don't miss fiddling around with points and dwell meters, and also dropping screws inside the distributor!

 

[Nuova500]

Some valid points there.... oh sorry bad pun! But, the really huge bad thing about electronic ignition is when it fails thats it, kaput you are stranded.
I have a 1961 Lambretta, on 6 volts and points. Most of my scooter riding mates have 12 volts electronic ignition conversions and mine starts as well if not better than all of them. Youll never drop a screw in a Panda dissy, they use the cassette type points, expensive but so cool!

 

[Chas Uno]

Some valid points there.... oh sorry bad pun!

Groan!

But, the really huge bad thing about electronic ignition is when it fails thats it, kaput you are stranded.

That is true. However, in 60K miles of driving old FIRE engined Unos with electronic ignition I've never had it fail on me, even though others with electronic ignition FIRE engines have had problems. There's only really three parts involved - the dry coil, the finned ignition module on the side of the distributor and pick up plate (reluctor) inside the distributor. The only thing that seems to give problems is the finned ignition unit, and that is when the two wires that go from it to the inside of the distributor crack their insulation and short out.

I always keep a spare finned module in my car along with a coil, though sods law dictates I've never needed them. Seems that for once Italian electrics (Magnetti Marelli) can be very reliable.

I have a 1961 Lambretta, on 6 volts and points. Most of my scooter riding mates have 12 volts electronic ignition conversions and mine starts as well if not better than all of them. Youll never drop a screw in a Panda dissy, they use the cassette type points, expensive but so cool!

Ah, aftermarket electronic ignitions can often give problems. They are often generic units adapted to fit a number of different vehicles and as a result aren't always perfect. As you've found out with your scooter being just as good if not better at starting, but you do also sound like you keep it in good condition too.

The system used on the FIRE is simple and reliable, and I'd recommend using the Fiat system on a FIRE engine if maintenance is something the owner didn't often do. Saying that though, a well maintained contact breaker system is also reliable, but ONLY if it is regularly maintained!

And it would be difficult to drop a screw into a Panda FIRE dizzy as it comes off the side of the head, not like the old Ford and Vauxhall engines I used to work on where the distributor was upright!

I wonder if Beancounter managed to find out the problem of the poor starting on their Panda?

 

[Nuova500]

I hope he did, ignition probs are a real pain at the best of times... I do secretly wish my 903 had it at times when the points close up!

 

[Beancounter]

I wonder if Beancounter managed to find out the problem of the poor starting on their Panda?

I hope he did, ignition probs are a real pain at the best of times...

Nope, though TBH, I didn't check the points.

In all honesty I hate mucking around with cars and their engines and even more so when it come to electrics. :bang:

The problem seemed to ease for a while until this weekend. when I say ease, I mean spraying the exterior of the top end of the engine with Damp Start and chucking some through the airbox and into the carb. Wait ten, maybe fifteen minutes and the car fires up.

This weekend though, the car had been lying for five days unused (the norm), the car would not start and the battery drained. Charged the battery checked the plugs and it fired up third turn of the key.

I'm not keen on checking the points as it seems a lot more involved than I want to get. I also have my weekends full with work and studying.

Aside from the inconvenience of not being able to rely on the car for personal use, I need it to be totally reliable for work. I work as a trainee surveyor so don't need the car everyday, rather intermittently and it needs to be 100% on the game.

Think it might be time to look for another car that might be abit more reliable.

Thanks for all your help folks, it has been greatly appreciated.

 

[Pandarus]

I think my 750 has forgotten what cold starts are like. Started fine today (I usually leave at a very cold and icy 6am) but my journeys are fairly short ones (about 10 minutes) and she was not warmed properly through. I am going to leave a few minutes earlier from tomorrow to give the car a longer run - she was purring quite nicely after about 15 minutes tonight, but that was after a juddery 5 minutes on the way up to 'nicely warm'.

I have bought a brand new battery this weekend because I had 3 or 4 times when the car let me down (luckily it was at home in the morning every time). I am hoping it wass the battery rather than the alternator but that will be a cheap fix anyway - just a pain. Don't think it was the alternator because everything seemed ok electrically.

Russ