Technical Coil spring crunch

[philbo1965uk]

Hi ive trawled every post and at first it appears its a repeat question but i can't find a suitable response in another thread to my issue..

I own a mk2 punto 8v 03 plate.

Last month i noticed a crunching sound when turning the steering wheel at any speed or at stand still.Turns out the coil spring on drivers side had broken.

So i paid to get a new coil spring fitted..

However the noise is still there despite the new spring.As no noise was emitted from the front end prior to coil break whats wrong with my car.

I ask from a safety point as we have two small children and would hate to be driving an unsafe car.

On inspection i checked both sides...i can see passengerside spring make little turns when turning the wheel but no noise...but the driver side (which had broken spring) as i turn the wheel and i can see the spring actually clunk as it turns slightly.

With this issue will the new replaced coil spring just break again if i leave it....

I used a competent mechanic to replace the spring as a govy job after work,he works as mechanic at fiat dealer.I don't want to go back to him to complain about the refit as he did the job for the price of the spring (£25)

 

[MikeSalt]

I would say that your competent mechanic has incompetently fitting the spring ends into shaped cups. The whole spring should rotate with the wheel.

Alternatively, he has dropped and lost the metal bushing that should be fitted into the top mount, meaning that the nut is tightened against the mount, not allowing the upper spring cup to pivot the way it should.

 

[philbo1965uk]

Thanks for your quick reply...yep looked and i see the cups that the springs are in...the are rusty.Also the ends of the springs themselves are mated to the little retaining tabs in the cups.

You are right both springs move when turning the wheel....just the replaced side makes a visible clunk...is it in danger of breaking before i can save up for a garage to recitify it.

Also is there any pionts of the strut i can grease or will this not work.

I did inspect the top of the struts...under the bonnet and found them to be centred different is this normal.The housing is bigger than the struts one side is located further to the back and the replaced strut is more to the front,if that makes sense.

ps.Competent in the fact he works as the main mechanic at fiat dealership in north east UK.It took him less than 45 mins to do the job with not a hammer in sight... and he only charged me the price of the spring which i bought..

any further insight would be greatly appreciated as i cannot afford a few hundred at a garage and i'd rather not drive it if its a risk of failure again as i have children

 

[philbo1965uk]

Just a quick post is it possible i can loosen the top bolt on the strut and allign it with the other...or do i have to jack the car up etc and loosen other bolts

 

[MikeSalt]

Seriously, get someone who knows what they are doing to look at this, ASAP, particularly because you have children's lives at stake. If you were closer to me, I would help you out, since I have all the right tools. Whoever has done this has not only done something wrong to the top cup (which should still work even if a bit rusty) but they have also put the top mount on backwards. As a result, this causes a difference in castor angle between left-and-right and leads to a car that could understeer dangerously.

Do not attempt to do any work on the strut yourself without the right tools (in this case, a coil compressor). There is a huge amount of energy stored in the spring, and taking the top nut off releases this energy, with predictable ballistic consequences (even with the right tools it feels like playing with a loaded gun).

To anyone in the North-East region reading this, that has coil compressors, please can you take a look at this person's car and find out what is wrong.

 

[MikeSalt]

If the top and bottom of the spring ends are butted up to the tab in the top and bottom spring cups, then I am almost certain that the spacer bush has been missed out. If this is the case, the top cup is tightened against the upper mount bush, and not against the spacer bush like it should be. In this configuration, the top cup will resist turning, causing the clunking sound you describe.

What needs to be done here is to have the whole strut removed, coil compressors applied, top nut removed, spacer checked (which I suspect is missing), reassembly (including new top nut), ensuring both top and bottom spring mounts seated correctly and re-installation into the car with the top mount oriented the same way as the other side of the car.

The reason this can be reversed is because power-steering equipped vehicles do have the castor set the other way around.

 

[philbo1965uk]

Hey Mike...

Thanks for these answers...very appreciated.

Took the car out for a few miles run on my own.

Okay driving on straight road...minor potholes ok...speedbump crunch...turning left-right...odd crunch....drop off other side of speedbump ..loudish crunch.

Turn left-right....shhh shh shhh sound from front drivers breakdisc (don't know if its disc or pads but pads are newish)

Inspected wheels after arriving home drivers side (coil replaced) is pushed back a little further than passanger side..clearance is about 5 cm from arch on good side its more like 10cm.

checked both struts outwardly they both look identical,can't observe any spacers etc.Can't really afford Garage but could ive tried ebay and two spring compressors (look like clamps) are £15..is this worth investing in to do it myself.

If anyone is in the Hartlepool area could look at it i'd be happy to give them £20 to correctly reinstall it.

ps..what are these castors that can be put on wrong that you speak of

 

[rallycinq]

If you don't have spring compressors I am guessing you didn't fit the new spring yourself.

Therefore take it back to whoever did fit it and tell them its wrong. They will fix it Free of Charge, because they have failed to carry out the job correctly.

Cheers

SPD

 

[philbo1965uk]

Too embarrasing to take it back to him.

This mechanic i hardly know other than buying smokes off.He knows im unemployed and done it as a favour as i was completely stuck.

For a £25 charge i wouldn't dare go banging on his door saying "hey mush you haven't done this right" He probably used more petrol actually coming to my house to do the repair.

Anyway thanks for that...but im just seeking advice from other users here that maybe can help me identify whats wrong so i can do it myself.

 

[rallycinq]

Too embarrasing to take it back to him.

This mechanic i hardly know other than buying smokes off.He knows im unemployed and done it as a favour as i was completely stuck.

For a £25 charge i wouldn't dare go banging on his door saying "hey mush you haven't done this right" He probably used more petrol actually coming to my house to do the repair.

Anyway thanks for that...but im just seeking advice from other users here that maybe can help me identify whats wrong so i can do it myself.

Everybody on here has so far been right. The strut needs to turn independantly of the top mount. The strut and top mount are assembled incorrectly leading to your problem.

Cheers

SPD

 

[philbo1965uk]

yes...thanks i appreciate something isn't right.

Ive jacked it up and double checked for faults comparing it to the other strut..

Looking at the good one first i see the spring housing turn and the remaining body stays still.There is a white plastic block that doesn't move inside at the top.

On the other strut thats been fixed ive noticed this white plastic block turns with the spring.....???

any idea ?


ps...ive been told,by next door neighbour that the strut can be taken off the car without spring compressors.As im not removing the spring itself he said its locked into place by another nut.he said if i lift the bonnet and take a quarter of a turn out of the top nut it should free it as the top nut may be too tight causing the top cup to be jammed aginst the bodywork.

does this sound right?

 

[MikeSalt]

Just noticed it's a mk2. The upper assembly is slightly different, but everything that has been said is applicable.

 

[Mr Wild]

I too had the twanging problem, it's important to fit the top plate (shaped metal which fits into the top mount sourced from fiat for a few quid) the correct way around to prevent this. It has a notch which needs to sit perpendicular to the length of the car (so sticking out over).

From memory the white plastic part just sits on the shock ahsorber shaft, it has a rubber boot which hangs over the shock absorber to stop any debris and nasties getting in the cylinder. The fitment of the plastic is somewhat trivial and wouldn't cause any problems (from memory).

I would say though that if the plastic is turning on the newly fitted absorber, that the cylinder shaft could be turning along with the steering. This is bad. It has the potential to **** the shock absorber straight away by damaging the internal seals which retain the fluids.

Could be it was the top mount that had failed all along and not the spring. The bearings can fail in these. Costs about £25 for a new one.

Something is obviously wrong though and it needs to be reassembled pronto.

When I replaced mine, I got a new mount, a new top plate and a can of spray paint to protect the plate.

 

[philbo1965uk]

This top plate you mention that needs to have the notch the correct way around...is it viewable with the shock on the car.

I ask this because if i can physically see "ah this part is on wrong" it would help me.

can i removed the shockabsorber off the car as one complete unit...without the fear of the spring punching an hole in my face.

 

[Mr Wild]

Certainly does fella, these pictures are taken from the Fiat EPER. And they aren't actually ordered to show the assembly.

1 is your shock absorber, 4 is your white plastic with the rubber boot attached, that goes on next, your coil spring then goes on (you can ignore 9 and 10 that represents a plastic cover and hook which are there to protect brand new absorbers and are discarded).

Now look at pic 2, part 4 is the metal top plate, the flange on the side of it has to stick out over away from the car. This goes on next on top of the coil spring.

Now back to pic 1, part 5 is next, this is your top mount, this has a small bearing in the bottom for the whole assembly (absorber and spring) to rotate on and these are prone to failure after time. Part 6 pic 1 goes on next (make sure you put it with the circular collar pointing down), and retains the whole assembly by compressing coil spring to the absorber while you reattach it to the car. Put the assembly back in place and the top of the shock absorber goes through the body of the car. Then pic 1 part 8 and then part 7 goes on from above to fix the strut to the car.

You will be able to see the orientation of Pic 2 part 4 while its all still attached. Use your discretion but you may need to replace this part also, I did.

Show this to your mate next time.

Pic 1:

Pic 2:

P.S. You'll want to get your wheel alignment checked after you fit new suspension components. For this I recommend a bit of string and a level surface.

If you wanna do this yourself the only specialist tools you'll need are some levers/crowbars to force the suspension back together for reassembly, and some spring compressors which can be sourced off ebay for about £15 or probs from the shops. Everything else is just spanners and sockets.

 

[philbo1965uk]

thankyou mrwild for taking the trouble to respond.

can i remove the strut from the car to see if its assembled correct as one complete unit....without compressing the spring (as im not removing the spring)

 

[Mr Wild]

You can detach the strut from the car without using spring compressors but you won't be able to adjust the assembly of the strut, i.e. adjust the top plate or the seating of the top mount without compressors (unless you become creative with a mallet).

It's easy enough to take it off, getting it back on is the hardest part because other suspension components are a sod, but with some levers and sweat you'll get there.

If it's your first time I wouldn't recommend doing it without a haynes manual to keep you right. I think 6 nut and bolts hold the strut in place.

The spring is held under compression by a single nut once everything else is removed.

The videos here should give you some idea of what's involved:
https://www.fiatforum.com/punto/230344-grrr-strut-leaking-oil.html

 

[philbo1965uk]

Just so i know...if it was indeed the top mount/plate that was defective and caused the original spring to snap...the mechanic essentially put a new spring on a crapped out strut.Which still leaves my car knackered.

So even though it was a govy job outside of work hours...is he obliged to fit the neccersary part i buy....or do i have to pay twice ?

Any fault with the component he should have noticed surely as im not the mechanic.

Still,i feel awfull taking it back to him when he only charged £25 but i wanted it fixed and would have paid the extra cost for another part !

 

[MikeSalt]

It's a risk you take letting someone fit something for free. If there was no receipt for the work, he is under no obligation to fix your car. He should have pointed this out to you whilst doing the job and allowed to to order the part there-and-then.

In a lot of instances, you get what you pay for. If this was done at a proper garage, they would be under obligation to make sure the job was done properly, advising you of the parts required. Of course, an investment of you own time and tools can be better in many instances.

 

[Juggers2k]

I too had the twanging problem, it's important to fit the top plate (shaped metal which fits into the top mount sourced from fiat for a few quid) the correct way around to prevent this. It has a notch which needs to sit perpendicular to the length of the car (so sticking out over).

Thread resurrection I know, but credit where it's due.

I had a spring snap on my Mrs' 54 plate Punto. We changed both springs for safety's sake, but afterwards the left hand one twanged and the spring juddered when turning left.

I saw this post doing a search of FF last week and had a play with the spring compressors at the weekend - sure enough the top plate was round the wrong way (tab pointing in, not out).
With compressors on the spring, and the top mount loosened, was able to spin the top plate round, then release the spring again without removing the arm.
Twanging noise has now gone away

It looks like the top plate is non-concentric, so if its on the wrong way round, the top of the spring fouls against the inner arch.
With it the right way round, the spring sits further out.

So ta muchly Mr Wild