General Cinq and Sei N/A Options!!

[Jajr2009]

When it comes to tuning the standard 1108cc f.i.r.e engine you are limited to what you are going to get from the small engine but there are many choices for going down the N/A route -

OPTION 1. Fitting the 1242cc F.I.R.E engine from the fiat punto 60, The engine developes 60bhp as apposed to the 1108cc's 54bhp but the 1242cc engine has a longer stroke meaning it developes more torque across the rev range (max revs are reduced on the 1242cc). So an increase of 6bhp may not be alot but the torque increase means a very drivable nippy car and the 1242 60 engine can be picked up second hand for as little as £80, its a straight swap for the 1.1.

OPTION 2. Fitting the 1242cc punto 75 MPI engine, This engine is an improved version of the 60 engine which is fitted with Mulit Point Injection, bigger valves and ports, different intake manifold, higher compression ratio and a new ECU. It puts out 75bhp and around 85lb/sf of torque, it far more effiecient engine that the 60 engine and makes a good conversion for the cinquecento to bring it back upto modern standards.

OPTION 3. Fitting the 1242cc 16v engine, This engine uses the same bottom end as the punto 60 but with a 16v head on top and new pistons and lighter rods. This engine puts out 80-85 bhp depending on the year of the engine, with 85bhp it makes it as powerful as Vanaakens 1108cc low boost turbo conversion so its well worth thinking about.

OPTION 4. Fitting the 1.4 16v f.i.r.e. engine, this is one of the best conversions to do on the cinquecento, the 1.4 16v engine developes 100bhp (as fitted to the panda 100hp) and with a few mods such as a chip, filter exhaust, manmifold, cams it can make around 115-120bhp.

 

[dronenrs]

isnt this just a FAQ ( no offence but this is pretty much covered)

 

[Renrut]

And there was me thinking it would be more about the various cam options, intake styles available, best exhausts for what power, increasing rev limits (pros and cons) etc...

 

[2sei]

How much to do option 4, if you DIY it?

 

[whitz]

How much to do option 4, if you DIY it?

if you did it really cheapy you can do it for £1000-£1500 with a good engine

also on the super fire engines (16v) there are no cams and no way to improve the valve as the valves lifters are fully hydraulic with no shims, so the only way you could get a better cam in one is to do a complete custom top end of the engine which wouldn't be cheap, i just cant see why people dont look deep enough into an engine they are putting in without the complete knowledge of it

Ash

 

[craigb244]

if someone was going to spend a lot of money tuning a 8valve up. the 1.1 is actually better due to been a near square engine while the 1.2 is rather long stroke

option 3... you say it makes the same hp as a low boost turbo, but people should be aware that it wont anywhere as much torque as a turbo.

 

[Jajr2009]

Just took it from this site:
http://www.modifiedmonsters.com/fiat-general-section-f12/the-cinquecento-turbo-range-t168.htm

Tought it would be nice for newcomers, and yes covered in the FAQ.

only thing i know is using the punto 75 cam and exhaust manifold.

 

[2sei]

if you did it really cheapy you can do it for £1000-£1500 with a good engine

also on the super fire engines (16v) there are no cams and no way to improve the valve as the valves lifters are fully hydraulic with no shims, so the only way you could get a better cam in one is to do a complete custom top end of the engine which wouldn't be cheap, i just cant see why people dont look deep enough into an engine they are putting in without the complete knowledge of it

Ash

Without tuning it would be a nice reliable 100ish bhp though.

Does anybody have any links to someone who has done this? Thanks

 

[custard]

Without tuning it would be a nice reliable 100ish bhp though.

Does anybody have any links to someone who has done this? Thanks

the FAQs are linked in your own sig and top of the forum

https://www.fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento-faqs/93884-engine-swaps.html

 

[2sei]

the FAQs are linked in your own sig and top of the forum

https://www.fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento-faqs/93884-engine-swaps.html

Doh

 

[whitz]

Doh

the engine does degrade over time so dont expect 100 aim about upto 10 less

Ash

 

[Jajr2009]

the engine does degrade over time so dont expect 100 aim about upto 10 less

Ash

thats 100 hp at the flywheel meaning that would be less hp at the wheels right?

 

[whitz]

thats 100 hp at the flywheel meaning that would be less hp at the wheels right?

not sure, i would assume so, there will be loss of power through t the gearbox but i was refering to the loss of power over time as the engine wears away

such as the piston rings and bores lets more blow by pass past that, which you then have less compression and then less power

you would also have carbon build up in the exhaust which doesn't help

Ash

 

[fingers99]

if you did it really cheapy you can do it for £1000-£1500 with a good engine

Has been done for less -- see J333EVO and Emma's long post.

also on the super fire engines (16v) there are no cams and no way to improve the valve as the valves lifters are fully hydraulic with no shims, so the only way you could get a better cam in one is to do a complete custom top end of the engine which wouldn't be cheap, i just cant see why people dont look deep enough into an engine they are putting in without the complete knowledge of it

Ash

Pretty sure C & B (at least, methinks Piper and Kent, too) do cams. Isn't that what Kris fitted to his 16v?

 

[Dan]

indeed. The 1.2 16v is the same engine and that has cams for sale?

There was a polish sei that gained around 10bhp from cams IIRC. I dont know much into the workings of the hydralics, etc though.

http://www.gazzellaracing.com/product.php?productid=17651&cat=1797&page=1

I dont think anybody other than aaron could do it for under 1000. Still dont believe aaron did it for under 1k with an ECU like that. Think hes just hiding something from Emma.

When you factor in bakes, suspension etc, it soon goes way over 1k.

 

[Dan]

Here you go:

A few rough ideas....

Engine and a suitable box = £300 if you are extremely lucky
All parts including leads, ecu, alt, inlet, wiring, £50 if vey lucky
suspension springs (very minimum) = £80
Gt brakes or similar = £40
Induction = £50 minimum
manifold of some sort = £50 - £350 (probably £300 to be fair)
Custom exhaust £100 if you can weld £300 minimum otherwise
Remap (otherwise ecu thinks its a 1.2 and whats the point) £150+
new oil, colant, gearbox fluid, brake fluid...£50
New cambelt, etc as you really have to do this £50

Am 3/4 way through a guide that puts all info i have come across into an almost step through guide. Not hugely tecnical but covers what you need to know.

£1000 would get you a half arsed 1.4 to be honest. But if your going to do it, do it properly.

 

[2sei]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FIAT-BRAVO-1-...K_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM#ht_875wt_911

This the one?

Bit leggy

Would be rebuilt prior to install

 

[jimbro1000]

indeed. The 1.2 16v is the same engine and that has cams for sale?

There was a polish sei that gained around 10bhp from cams IIRC. I dont know much into the workings of the hydralics, etc though.

http://www.gazzellaracing.com/product.php?productid=17651&cat=1797&page=1

I dont think anybody other than aaron could do it for under 1000. Still dont believe aaron did it for under 1k with an ECU like that. Think hes just hiding something from Emma.

When you factor in bakes, suspension etc, it soon goes way over 1k.

We managed to extract about 120bhp from the 1.2 16v engine and part of that was down to the cam profiles. The limitation is that there is no appreciable way to increase the lift by any significant amount and there is a very definite limit on how fast the valves will open and close and that means the ramp of the cam profile is limited and it also means that there is little point in trying to up the rev limit.

You *can* increase the valve size and do some optimization on the gas flow which is where most of our gains came from but the cams are what unlocked that potential.

The problem is that it all costs - a pair of cams isn't cheap assuming you work from billet and because of those hydraulic lifters there isn't really much choice in the matter.

 

[whitz]

Here you go:

A few rough ideas....

Engine and a suitable box = £300 if you are extremely lucky
All parts including leads, ecu, alt, inlet, wiring, £50 if vey lucky
suspension springs (very minimum) = £80
Gt brakes or similar = £40
Induction = £50 minimum
manifold of some sort = £50 - £350 (probably £300 to be fair)
Custom exhaust £100 if you can weld £300 minimum otherwise
Remap (otherwise ecu thinks its a 1.2 and whats the point) £150+
new oil, colant, gearbox fluid, brake fluid...£50
New cambelt, etc as you really have to do this £50

Am 3/4 way through a guide that puts all info i have come across into an almost step through guide. Not hugely tecnical but covers what you need to know.

£1000 would get you a half arsed 1.4 to be honest. But if your going to do it, do it properly.

i got my engine, gearbox alternator inlet exhaust and wiring with ecu for free (replaced cam carrier for £30 thow as bearings went nice)

got a complete in car loom punto sporting engine loom map sensor and coil packs for £35

i can make a complete exhaust including manifold up myself :slayer:

i did HG, water pump timing belt clutch alternator belt fuel filter another HG for £150

oil got quite a bit of 10w40 spare from jobs, gearbox fluid £15 brake fluid £10 anti-freeze £8

and other bits totting up into a few hundred, best if you dont remember the prices thow

i also stand corrected on the cams

Ash

 

[Dan]

try finding a 1.4 16v for free.

you wont find many parts for free if you are looking for them.

With the 1.2 you wont need a remap, but 1.4 will cost you alot for a remap as not many people will do it properly.