Technical Cinq 1.1 Sporting with Punto 1.2 MPI

[redVXcoupe]

At last I'm back in business

Cinq in house and Punto engine on its way to the Cinq engine bay.
Will post pictures later...

The engines look very similar, only some brackets need to swap places
As mentioned earlier I will use Cinq ECU and loom, only splice the wires from Punto loom into Cinq loom.
Will the injector output of the Cinq ECU be able to run 4 injectors? hope so..

Have one small problem, front left engine/gear box mount is rusted. Is this similar to other Fiats?? Maybe Punto? Not easy to get a Cinq donor car in Norway

 

[fingers99]

Front mount is Cinq only, methinks, but should be bodgeable with PU (for rubber) and 3mm steel plate.

 

[redVXcoupe]

Thanks. Need a new one...totally rotten

Another thing, is it possible to split the gear selector on top of the gearbox? I know its possible to split from the gearbox

Need to use the top from the Cinq but the "bracket" holding the clutch cable is broken (the little hole) :bang:. Was thinking of using the aluminium "gearbox lid" and swaping the internals from the Cinq....the Punto and the Cinq are opposite

Was this understandable? hmmm

Sorry have no pictures

The Haynes does'nt say anything about this

 

[redVXcoupe]

Hello again,

The Cinq has got the new engine installed and it's running

The car has 1242 MPI 8V Punto with the gearbox from the Punto.
Thought I only had the driveshafts left to install....but no.

Problem is that the Cinq shafts are too small in the Punto box. The splines in the hubs are the same. Punto shafts are too long....

Are there any combinations that work? or are the only sollution to cut and welt the Punto shafts?

Was hoping not to take the engine out again changing to Cinq box....

 

[fingers99]

Eh? Cinq Sporting shafts should do it. I think the cups are the same as the Punto ones. 899 Cinq shafts are completely different.

I've never heard o9f anyone having to cut and weld Punto driveshafts (and I doubt it would work).

 

[redVXcoupe]

Thanks for quick answer.

The Puntobox cups are bigger....I allways thought it was the same.
My Cinq is a -97 Sporting, the Punto is a -98 SX (75)
Maybe there are some differences?

In the small racing series they cut and weld....putting 1242 in Autobianchi A112...it's working but I would not do it.

 

[fingers99]

Use the Cinq cups and the Cinq shafts. Remove (and substitute) the cups one at a time, or the diff will drop. It'll be fine. Or use the Cinq gearbox..............

 

[redVXcoupe]

Thanks again Fingers

Have now used the cups from the Chinq on the Punto box. Looks like its working. Thank you Fiat for making the splines in the diff the same size

Things left on the to do list are the exhaust and the induction....
Was planning to use an induction from a Cinq 0.9, a tube and a green filter (or similar) located close to the vapor system for cold air. Very little space between the hood an the engine.

Any better suggestions?

 

[redVXcoupe]

About time for some updates...

The 1242 Punto Mpi is allmost running in the car...
Everything seems to be working after minor problems with the drive shafts/cups.

I have used the complete Punto engine, Punto box and the Punto fuelpump (3 Bar).
Sporting Spi loom with Sporting ECU spliced into the four Mpi injectors. No problems with the priming, code light switch off, engine starting and oil pressure is ok.

But the engine is no running ok....it starts ok but after a few seconds it's running very rough and it stops. If I keep it running at +2000 it runs fine. The throtle response is very good. If I go off the throttle the engine stops an is difficult to start again. Have searched for info at FF, been reading for days...
but can not find info I need. Looks like most people use 1242 Spi (P60). Not very common in Norway.
I thought the "auto tune" function would take care of idling...
It's not possible to run the engine warm only by idling as the procedure describes, engine stops

Do I have to use the Mpi ECU? (I have read several places it's not necessary)
Any grounding or sensors causing this kind of problem?

I have a MOT in very short time so I need this little runner going....

I had a little test drive yesterday and it's a quick, funny little car but need the idling sorted.....

Tore

 

[fingers99]

People have run MPI engines off the SPI ECUs. In fact, the original FIAT rally cars did just that.

My guess -- it really is nothing more -- is that the IAC isn't working/functioning as it should.

 

[woj]

It's not idling, because the fuel is considerably off, that is, in your case it is too rich. Too lean would be very high flactuating idle, yours die. The autotune would work but not until you have an almost good idle. With somthing like what you have the ECU runs in open loop most of the time and has no chance to auto adapt. In principle I would recommend a remap or indeed MPI ECU (IAW 18F is preferable). The ECU is a straight swap in your case, as long as it is decoded. Only a couple of wires need to be disconnected.

But if you are in despair you can try this. Fire it up, warm it up properly by whatever means you can, then go for a steady mid range load drive, I would say 80km/h on fifth would do it. If your area is hill - less speed and lower hear. The more steady you keep it, the quicker the autolearn will adjust. This might help. By no means full or WOT load, it will not do anything useful. If this by any chance works do not unplug the battery or the ECU, because you will have to start over.

Another option is to set feul trims through the diagnostics interface. But I am not sure which software can do that, if any. I know it is possible, just never played with it myself.

 

[redVXcoupe]

Thank you guys for so quick answer
I did clean the valve and throtlebody before startup but not good enough. I took the valve apart and cleaned it. It was allmost rusty.....
After reinstalling everything looks fine, engine is idling perfect....nice I like it.
Next thing is start engine from cold tomorrow.

Thanks again

Next project will be 1.4 16V and 6 speed.....
Will be collecting parts during the winter....

 

[redVXcoupe]

Re: Cinq 1.1Spi Sporting with Punto 1.2 Mpi not idling

Today the car has the same symptoms as earlier...

Cleaned the IAC from the 1,2 Mpi, thought everything was ok..was not.
Cleaned the one from the 1.1 Spi and installed...also the same pattern...first idling fine, then starting to cycle between 500 and 1500 and suddenly stop.
Difficult to start again. Sometimes the engine sounds like it's running only on 3 cyl.

Are there any differences between sensors from Spi and Mpi? they look the same.
Can't find any air leaks...tried a separate grounding from the battery to engine, no difference.

woj, you mentioned a direct swap from Spi to Mpi, only a few wires need to be disconnected...have read something about wire "26", anything else?

This weekend will be in Padova at http://www.autoemotodepoca.com/
but first thing next week I will try the ECU from the 1.2 Mpi (Punto 75) only will have to find a solution regarding the code key for the Mpi

Any suggestions?

-Tore

 

[ycming]

I could be wrong but to the run P75 ECU with the SPI loom, is not plug and play.

There are people that ran the P75 complete engine with spi loom and ecu with no problems. Am sure is just a sensor issue?

Ming

 

[blu73]

so if i understand right it runs ok when started from cold but not once warmed, i'm with Ming, sounds so like a faulty sensor or wire to a sensor. crank maybe or lambda even as that isn't used at cold start - it should start fine without one connected but not idle once warmed. Cranks sensors that are on way out quite often get dodgy when warm before they stop working completely. These might have been mentioned already though, i haven't read back and memory is famously bad lol.

 

[redVXcoupe]

Would not a faulty lambda give a ign. lamp warning on the dash?

I have measured the temp. sensors, looks ok.
I will have a look at the crank sensor. Is it possible to measure the resistance only since it's only a "pick up"?

This problems is quite new for me...have worked on dedras with Weber Marelli and Themas with Bosch Motronic. If it was a sensor problem, could usually smell something from the exhaust.

This little 1242 smells ok...
The temp (WM) sensor is a PTC?
The Bosch is NTC which caused overfueling when broken...

Maybe the engine is too lean?

 

[fingers99]

Sometimes the engine sounds like it's running only on 3 cyl.

Worthwhile checking to see if it is.

The IAC is the same. IAC is probably responsible for the (lean) hunting idle.

I'd not rule out the crank sensor (or bad sheilding to it).

 

[hf turbo]

change the map sensor mate, the spi and mpi's are different. i run complete p75 engine and ecu using SPI loom. The only wires i had to modify were those for the injectors.

 

[ycming]

change the map sensor mate, the spi and mpi's are different. i run complete p75 engine and ecu using SPI loom. The only wires i had to modify were those for the injectors.

You use P75 engine and P75 ECU with SPI loom from a cento ??

 

[hf turbo]

yes mate i do