Technical Cilinderhead flowing

[J333EVO]

Do you have a test rapport of it?

They say: It has to be modified?

I don't think it has to be modified, I'm sure that it is modified maybe a mix up in translation tho i know from my mat living in Amsterdam for 3 years your grasp of other languages put us Brits to shame.

the inlet forms part of everyone of there off the shelf tuning kits, therefore i would interpret this as something that they have identified as a restriction

see the 64PS kit chip, filter, inlet manifold, cam http://www.bielstein.com/FIAT/Cinquecento/cin01leistungst/cin01leistungst.html

the 76PS kit throttle body, cam, inlet manifold, cam, chip and exhaust http://www.bielstein.com/FIAT/Cinquecento/cin02leistungst/cin02leistungst.html

83PS kit pretty much the same as 76 but better exhaust system http://www.bielstein.com/FIAT/Cinquecento/cin03leistungst/cin03leistungst.html

Email them they are very friendly and quick to respond to queries.

Aaron.

 

[TurboCinqy1250]

Tonight I could make a test run with a 40mm TB instead of a 32mm and my flowed intake manifold and this is the result.

Black is before and red after my mods. This is in 3th gear. The road not dry yet so in 2nd gear I could not get enough grip.
(even in 3th gear from no gas at 3500rpm to full trottle gives wheelspin for sometimes)

G-tech dynoplot (+ 45% for the crank Power and x 1.37 for HP
http://members.lycos.nl/turbocinqy/forums/G-tech-gasklepmod.jpg


I don't get it. What went wrong. Or my valves are the restriction :bang: or the turbo can't handle more flow and causes a huge backpressure.

And the head intake holes are a little smaller then my intake is at the moment so maybe this gives some bad swirles.

 

[Oldschool]

Your valves wouldn't be causing the power drop.

I have got a fair idea of what went wrong but would like to know exactly what you had done to the car before ( including the exact dimensions of components) and what exactly you have changed for the second run as well as what the conditions were before and after.

 

[TurboCinqy1250]

7.7 CR
1 bar boost (14.5 PSI) IHI RHB4 6 cubic liters flow/Min max
FMIC
Novitec 276 Cam
Balanced crank, driveshafst, clutch and flywheel
25% lighter flywheel
Forced pistons
original exhaust manifold (only cut down for the turbo)
52mm exhaust diameter from downpipe to rear damper.
Mod. novitec exhaust from 27mm to 60mm pipe diameter.
Original valves


And for this test.

32mm TB before with a original Intake manifold (only sand it)

And after
40mm Tb and spacer, and a port size increase of 40% (only manifold)

Driving conditions where the same. As the day before. Same temp, same weight same road.

 

[Oldschool]

To start with it clearly shows that both your ignition mapping and your fuel mapping is all over the places.

 

[TurboCinqy1250]

Uhmmmm this isn't a rolling road plot but a measure while driving. That's why it's not steady and flat. www.gtechpro.com

This is a real dyno plot before my 40mm TB mod

http://members.lycos.nl/turbocinqy/forums/HT-RFdynoplot.jpg

And ignition and injection is set there with a piggyback fuel/ignition controller.
www.perfectpower.com SMT-6
Blue is before and red after the runs.

 

[Oldschool]

It might be driving but doesn't necessarily mean that it is an inferior graph.

you seem to have in the lower part of the graph some more power/ torque than at figher revs. And the graph is rather erratic at the higher revs. This shows that the ECU is struggeling to get it right.

I respect your points but still think that you have to look at the mapping again.

 

[TurboCinqy1250]

The torque curve is running down cause of the restriction. The timing is advanced for 8 degrees and 10 degrees at lower RPM's (only it was a mod. turbo chip so I don't know the excact ignition timing at high revs.)

I can try to change it but if I go to far it wil destroy my engine.

We tried more advancing the timing at the dyno but the difference was small, a few HP at high rev's

So I still think it is a flow limit.

 

[Oldschool]

If you have only changed the throttle body then I can't agree with what you say. You haven't restricted the system more with the 40mm one. The original/previous TB is quite some more restrictive.

You have taken away some restriction, which will help to increase the volumetric efficiency. That this is true shows that you have got a bit more power/torque at fairly low revs but higher up a rather erratic section of the graph.

Sorry, I don't want to be extra clever or patronising but I am still convinced that the fueling and the timing need to be looked at.

 

[TurboCinqy1250]

The engine was running more at rich AFR then before the 40mm tb and manifold.

If you see the official dynoplot there aren't any bumps in it only at 4500 rpm. Only we could not find out what problem the was.

Maybe the exhaust gasses can't get out quick enough and causing a back pressure.

Don't forget Im running at 145 HP so the engine flow is almost at the max of his capacity.

AFR is rich above 5000 rpm, I did this on purpose for extra engine cooling to keep the EGT low.

 

[Oldschool]

You possibly reard about the thread about the GSR induction kit fitted to the Stilo 1.8. If this induction improves peak power by 9.8 bhp and torque by 7% it obviously means that quite some more air enters the combustion chamber. The ECU can cater for that. And we are talking about a normally aspirated engine.

You have altered on component that allows for about 40% more airflow. Whatever the boost pressure might be it was the same before and after. The amount that can go through the throttle body has greatly increased. It isn't the 'weakest link' anymore. Additionally the the throttle position relates now to a different amount of air the ECU hasn't been told.

Remember you have only altered one component and this has given you a dramatically different reading. The exhaust might not be the best but it should have been calculated for the cam timing and the engine capacity. A change in the volumetric efficiency would not bounce back on the characteristics of the power graph.

 

[TurboCinqy1250]

I don't understand you completly but The fueling isn't a problem cause I have a Wideband lambda with datalogging and can change the injector timing of the std. injector and my 2nd injector and even can change the ignition in all rpm's throttle positions/load and boost.

My turbo is running off his scale (flow limit) and maybe this delivers hot air in the intake (got a temp gause but need to build it in) and causes the back pressure (believe me that hole in the turbinehouse is small)
The turbo could deliver about 160BHP and 6 Cubic meter of air a minute

I did take a look at a 16V head today but it won't work on my 1.2 engine because the combustion chamber is a lot smaller than mine.

Somebody told me that a bigger exhaust valve is better for turbocharged engines and a longer exhaustvalve timing. and less valve overlap timing

So I buyed a punto 75 cam and give it a try instead of my Novitec cam. Maybe it got less valve timing but I think the overlap is less.

 

[rallycinq]

There is a situation we had with Escort Cosworths in production racing where the big turbo produced too much boost for the standard intercooler.

I think its the combined gas law that gives the answer. Once the flow reaches maximum, all the extra pressure does is increase the heat.

P1,V1/T1=P2,V2/T2

Cheers

D

 

[Asteris]

52mm from down pipe and after is stricting the flow. 63mm would suit better an 160 hp turbo engine.

 

[Oldschool]

Whatever lambda sensor you have is immaterial when you have such drastic changes. The ECU takes the decisions. The Lambda sensor only supplies data.

If the ECU is programmed for a fairly narrow window you can do with the sensors what you want to do the ECU still tries to keep things within the windows.

 

[TurboCinqy1250]

Lambda is shut off when driving full throttle.
Lambda is only for zero load driving. Cruising speed and stuff. Above that the ECU is running on his full maps. And if this needs a lot of full or less it doesn't matter. it gives what the chip says and the rest (if it's to few) is injected bij the 2nd injector which is running at RPM TPS and Manifold pressure, and given values in 8x16 maps.

 

[Oldschool]

I know this all. And this is just what it is about. You are answering your own questions. The map above 4000rpm is static. Also the piggy back map is static. Mapping is nothing new to me. Currently I develop maps together with another company and I build everything up to race engine of whom some have won races. I am not talking from some hear say of a max power meet.

You have changed one component that has got a massive impact on the VE. Logically you have to adapt the map. And this is as much the timing as the fueling. There is nothing I can do about. This is physics. And the graphs show it clearly.

Edit: The highlighted word map in this respect does not refer to the manifold absolute pressure as it suggests when getting the cursor over it! It refers to the ECU mapping points.

 

[TurboCinqy1250]

The right row is the manifold pressure map. Only this is empty and the values are not right. Now it's set between -0.1 bar and 1.1 bar. The number is the x rate over the map on the left.

example: in the 8th row at 5303rpm the value is 50. and at 1 bar there is 1.2
Than the inject timing is 50x1.2 = 60. Don't the the exact injecting time at the moment. I thought 6m/s.

And this is only the 2nd injector.
The original is injecting more fuel because the fuel pressure is higher then original.

 

[Oldschool]

I give up! There is nothing I realistically can add to it. Everything said before remains the same.