Car key robbery - from the industry

[Jeff in Poole]

I have recently found out how hugely expensive it is to get a spare transponder key from dealers for my Seicento - £187 quoted (insertion central locking, not remote). So I have had a metal key cut locally (£6-50) which will at least open the doors - but will not of course start the ignition.

I also note in the handbook that Code Cards (produced with the car) are "at the behest of the UK Insurance Industry" not supplied in UK (not issued with the car). I don't know how many Fiat users are aware but the Code Card has the Transponder Code and the mechanical key code (for cutting new keys). The 5 digit transponder code can then be used for an **emegency start-up procedure** - but then **not in UK** - buyers of new cars pay for security, pay for **back-up** to the securtiy with a Code Card, but the cards are with-held for the benefit of the Insurance industry ...

I don't know if other Fiat owners have views on this but it is an issue I will be taking up with Trading Standards and others - the cost of a spare key running to near £200 whilst the code cards, which would at least provide the codes (and save £35) are with-held - but can be bought back for **£35* from Fiat togerher with a £5 EPROM key for £87 as quoted by Fiat (plus £35 to programme) ...

This is all clearly causing a lot of distress to a lot of motorists all manufacturers - the insurance/security industry taking over where the car thieves left off robbing us blind - held to hostage by our own vehicle security in the control of the industry, not the car owner ...

regards

Jeff Williams
Poole
UK

 

[Eklipze3k]

At new, our cars were supplied with 2 keys and tbh I'm glad the code isn't included with the car, personally I wouldn't do this but the feeling is that the majority of people would leave the code in the vehicle - thus making it very easy to steal and by proxy increasing our insurance rates. Unfortunately, we're both in the same position where one of the previous owners of our Sei has lost one of the keys leaving us with no spare. The industry isn't to blame for this.

ps. As I understand it, there are companies out there who are able to make spare keys for a lot less than Fiat quote. Speak to a member on here called ponsaloti (Benfleet Locks, Essex) - even if you're not local, I'm sure he can offer advice.

pps. Welcome to the forum, other than the spare key issue I hope you're enjoying your Sei

 

[ponsaloti]

Hi
In my opinion, when you buy the vehicle from the Dealer, the codes belong to the vehicle so they are yours. They are not a spare part sitting on the shelf waiting for something to wear out or break.
I dont see any other way of looking at this.
I can understand the cost of a new key/remote from the Dealer, but charging for the codes that belong to the car is a con.
If they put it down to an admin charge, why not give the codes over when the vehicle is first registered or sold.

Vote with you feet.
If everyone that bought a car from A main agent or car front said they would only buy if codes were included. This would eventually filter back to the Manufacturer and codes will be included.

 

[sludgeguts]

When you buy a new car, you tend to get a lot of bumpf along with it, this is generally shoved into one side or another of a plastic wallet - usually a 10 page guide to the car and a 500 page guide to operate the radio along with a 1000page guide on {brand} dealers across europe
And generally, amongst this carp, they tend to staple a card with the radio codes printed on it.

So why not make life easier? a decent wallet with a slot for spare key (with a velcro flap so it can't slip out), a slot for radio code card, a slot for key code card and then the manuals on the other side.
And make this wallet too big to fit in the glove box, perhaps even print on it "must be left at home in a safe place"

Perhaps the car industry should also 'fine' owners who want to sell/PX their cars without including spare keys?
Would you buy a house if the owner could only hand over 1 door key? So, you bought the car with 2 keys but now you only have the 1? Eh? A likely story.

Forgot to add, my spares are in the wallet in my filing cabinet. In the past, if the main key wears out, I get a new key cut from the spare so it can go back in the wallet.

 

[ponsaloti]

When you move house, why would you want the keys that came with it.
Who else has a set ?
you've got to be off you trolley if you dont change the locks.

I have a copied key blade inside my wallet. It wont start the van but it will get me in if I lock the keys inside.
£10 inc p&p if anyone wants one.

 

[Davren]

When you move house, why would you want the keys that came with it.
Who else has a set ?
you've got to be off you trolley if you dont change the locks.

I think the same should apply when buying a second hand car too. Previous owner knows your address and could have spare keys even if he's given you "both" of them.

Every second hand car I've ever bought prior to the current Stilo, I've swapped a few of the tumblers/wafers around in the barrels and cut new keys to suit.

The Stilo with the side cut key looks too complicated and I don't know what's in the barrels. I never leave it ouside on the road anyway. It's always parked in a locked garage at home or travelling around Europe. I doubt the previous owner would follow me there.

 

[sludgeguts]

When you move house, why would you want the keys that came with it.
Who else has a set ?
you've got to be off you trolley if you dont change the locks.

So why is it any different with a car then? by all accounts, a car is your second largest purchase. But it is difficult changing the locks on cars - nowhere near as easy as a house. So you pay many, many thousands for a car and accept that the previous owner has lost a key?
You have to give them all your details for the registration document - so they know where the car is going to be parked.

However, you'd be amazed at just how many people don't change their locks - it's one of those jobs you will get around to doing. It was actually the first thing I did when we signed over, then again, it was only a cheapo yale in there so it took a matter of seconds to whip the back off & swap the lock for something meatier - and all the while the wife was giving me earache about getting the van unloaded "leave that, you can do it later" (but she's the trusting sort).

 

[sludgeguts]

Why is it manufacturers spend thousands upon thousands improving many aspects of the car and yet security is still in the dark ages - relying on an olde worlde lock and key.

Seeing as how there is a computer under the bonnet controlling many aspects of the workings, why do we not have a more sophisticated entry/start system?
Fingerprint scanners (for example) are cheap as chips these days. Cars should utilise small, long life rechargeables to control the equipment for entry/start circuits, making them independant of the battery used to start & maybe even another battery for ancilliary equipment. It's all well and good having one lump under the bonnet but a cold winter takes its toll - especially as the battery ages and especially as manufacturers chuck more and more electronics into the motor.

 

[Davren]

Fingerprint scanners (for example) are cheap as chips these days.

So instead of breaking into your house to steal the keys, car thieves would break in and cut off your fingers.

 

[muffin8118]

Hi
In my opinion, when you buy the vehicle from the Dealer, the codes belong to the vehicle so they are yours. They are not a spare part sitting on the shelf waiting for something to wear out or break.
I dont see any other way of looking at this.
I can understand the cost of a new key/remote from the Dealer, but charging for the codes that belong to the car is a con.
If they put it down to an admin charge, why not give the codes over when the vehicle is first registered or sold.

Vote with you feet.
If everyone that bought a car from A main agent or car front said they would only buy if codes were included. This would eventually filter back to the Manufacturer and codes will be included.

I bought my 500 about 2 months ago from a dealer in Nottingham that is part of a larger group that has a Fiat franchise. It was supplied with just one key and it took the best part of 6 weeks to get the spare key and codes sent to me. I had to pay for the programming of the key and was told that if I lost the codes I would be charged as Fiat would charge them for requesting the code. The spare needless to say is indoors with the manual. I suppose the codes are readily not available for security reasons.

 

[ponsaloti]

Sluge, Id much rather get my car broken into than my house. Totally differant.
People are moaning about the price of keys now. Can you image if more expensive systems were put in place.
Example... Range Rovers of certain years. Try to manually open a locked door with a remote key that has a flat battery (in the key). The vehicle will totally lock down, meaning the key will not get you in and the electrics go to sleep. Only solution is to have the Dealer lift the car and take it back to the workshop. I'd hate to think of the cost of not changing the remote battery after the owner had been warned by the message on the dashboard.

Muffin, I dont understand where you think there would be a security issue by giving the owner the codes.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Muffin, I dont understand where you think there would be a security issue by giving the owner the codes.

Because a lot of owners tend to generally be a tad on the thick side and will leave the code in the car, thus rendering the immobiliser pointless if the theif has the code

 

[ponsaloti]

Sort of get your point but the thief would have to be able to get into the car, have a keycutting machine and blank. Then cut the key to code, plug another machine into the car and code in the key (which may or may not have the correct chip) into the car.
This aint gonna happen unless the vehicle is a bit special, in which case the car would be lifted or keys would be stolen from the house.

if someone is that intent on taking the car. The codes being in the car is irrelevent.

 

[sludgeguts]

So instead of breaking into your house to steal the keys, car thieves would break in and cut off your fingers.

Yes, of course they would

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Sort of get your point but the thief would have to be able to get into the car, have a keycutting machine and blank. Then cut the key to code, plug another machine into the car and code in the key (which may or may not have the correct chip) into the car.
This aint gonna happen unless the vehicle is a bit special, in which case the car would be lifted or keys would be stolen from the house.

if someone is that intent on taking the car. The codes being in the car is irrelevent.

You joking me right? Over ride the immobiliser, snap the steering lock which are still as crap as theyve always been, hot wire it and they're off just like in the 80s!

 

[ponsaloti]

You joking me right? Over ride the immobiliser, snap the steering lock which are still as crap as theyve always been, hot wire it and they're off just like in the 80s!

I'm lost. you've gone from "idiot owners who leave the code in the car", to snapping the steering lock and hot wiring.

Does leaving the codes in the car have any real significance when your car is being stolen?

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

I'm lost. you've gone from "idiot owners who leave the code in the car", to snapping the steering lock and hot wiring.

Does leaving the codes in the car have any real significance when your car is being stolen?

You do indeed seem lost.

With code in car the sum can get in and drive it away.

Without code in car they can't get in and drive it away

 

[ponsaloti]

:doh:

 

[Eklipze3k]

Ponsaloti - I've never been 100% clear on this from your previous posts - for the Code2 system, do you personally need the Code Card in order to create new keys or are you able to do it with the vehicle present (I guess by scanning the ECU or something?)?

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Ponsaloti - I've never been 100% clear on this from your previous posts - for the Code2 system, do you personally need the Code Card in order to create new keys or are you able to do it with the vehicle present (I guess by scanning the ECU or something?)?

Need to code as far as I'm aware for code 2, but I'm no expert on recoding.

And with code 1 its the red key thats needed I believe.