General Bye Bye Fiat - Never Again

[T14086]

Why oh why don't people go to another dealer then???

Or more precise what are the actual problems people are having with dealers,not good saying they are crap....why are they?

(bet this now becomes the longest thread ever )

 

[Deckchair5]

Well put it the other way around. Are you, the technicians, getting the back up from Fiat? Is the information you need available and up to date?

We appreciate that modern car electrics are vulnerable stuck out as they are in all weathers with unreliable constant voltage power supplies half the time. The very sophisticated sensors and warning systems need everything to be 100% all the time which is a minor miracle.

But is the training up to scratch? Are you always kept up to date? Is the back up there for uncharted problems?

Are the spares available? Do they send the right parts? I can appreciate that you can only do your job if you have the solid and reliable back up teams behind you

So what's it like Techs?

 

[T14086]

Actually was wanting to know the major gripes from the public,noticed I said 'major' gripes as not interested in the fussy p**cks,you know the 'a sparrow landed on my bonnet & left a scratch... I demand a new car/respray' type However will try & answer your questions,

Well put it the other way around. Are you, the technicians, getting the back up from Fiat? Is the information you need available and up to date?

Generally technical help is as good as other manufacturers.Major gripe is the 'fax to TeSeO' system......crap! Not good when you have to queue for fax machine behind office staff/salesman who are faxing silly pictures to each another.Even then it's a hope I get a reply today! no good if customer due back soon etc....really need a dedicated phoneline direct to TeSeO with a ID number to identify yourself/dealer,most other manufacturers do it(or directly lik to diagnostic machine)why can't Fiat?

We appreciate that modern car electrics are vulnerable stuck out as they are in all weathers with unreliable constant voltage power supplies half the time. The very sophisticated sensors and warning systems need everything to be 100% all the time which is a minor miracle.

A sensor is a sensor (of whichever type) understand how it operates then you understand the readings it produces under particular conditions and the way the ECU acts under this information.Intermittent faults are the hardest/most awkward,but if explained clearly to the customer I find the customer is very understanding and know you are doing your best under difficult circumstanes to identify the fault.They realise it may take a few dealer visits but it's nice to 'cushion' this by collecting/delivering the car to ease the customers inconvience.

But is the training up to scratch? Are you always kept up to date? Is the back up there for uncharted problems?

Training is as good as other manufacturers from what I have experienced.Instructor knowledge is very good & time is spent explaining any queries,new car courses keep tech up to date.Uncharted problems? well having a ongoing one now & all available information has been released to myself so you could say they have done everything they possibly can.

Are the spares available? Do they send the right parts? I can appreciate that you can only do your job if you have the solid and reliable back up teams behind you

This is where we get into the realm of almost politics! Can we get parts next day..generally yes but it's more expensive & cuts proffits,Well as far as i'm concerned the car should be fixed & back on road ASAP,not a view of management though alot of the time for the above reason.
I find the parts system not very clear with alot of time wasted trying to identify parts....parts department rather the tech identify the part incase it's wrong & has to be sent back with a resulting surcharge (and customer annoyance) & tech rather parts order part as they use the system daily and it's their job! Items under a certain value cannot be returned,this results in arguments between service & parts department who should absorb the costs.This is true of all manufacturers and not just Fiat.
Salesmen.......well they only talk to you when they need a job urgently done so in the 'food chain' they are placed below flora.All departments have targets to be met,again personally i'd rather see more time spent on jobs/making sure customer is happy.I dont agree with this 'f*ck em' attitude,the car (someones hard earned cash/pride & joy) has been brought here to be fixed by experts and it should be done in a proffesional manner.On the other side of the coin some customers deserve it as they think they can bring their car in on a friday afternoon & get it fixed straight away...what they dont realise is bookings have already been taken by customers (sometimes weeks beforehand) and the work load for that day is completely booked up and these customer should come first.
Obviously parts wrongly boxed are not the dealers fault & it does happen often unfortunally.I would like to see techs being asked more about how long a job should take and being more involved in customer relations i.e. talking to the customer even reassuring them them the fault will be rectified as soon as,this rarely happens as it means 'lost time' but I still strongly suggest everyone asks to speak to the tech working on their car if they have any queries or are not too sure of something.This again reassures the customer & improves relations.There is no better feeling than a customer asking for 'you' to work on their car or even 'tell the tech who worked on my car thanks for doing a good job' because you will NEVER get a thanks from management!

Ooops rambled on abit much there......as usual

 

[kev1]

I personally think the problems lie with "middle" management
The top brass at Fiat HQ do want us to be happy with our purchase in order for them to increase market but they are stuck with the product range available.
The techs want an easier life so they do the job required but they are also stuck with cars which came out the factories sub-standard.
the managers, however, are complacent and too indoctrinated in their attitude of "you got it cheap so what do you expect". These are the people that must be changed.

Fiat are bringing out a lot of new models over the next few years (stilo,punto,500,even lancia might be coming back) so it needs to root these problems out now for any hope of success in the future

As for unreliability, Fiat do suffer but no worse than most - just ask any mercedes owner. Imagine how you would feel if you spent upwards of 35k on your car and it's more problematic than a fiat :bang:

sorry for the lecture - I'll shut up now

 

[T14086]

Alot of management have often never held a tool in their hand (well OK one!) and come straight from the colleges.Shoot them now..or is that a bit over the top

That ain't now lecture,just your opinion.My posts,well....even my posts bore me sometimes zzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Ben R]

Actually was wanting to know the major gripes from the public,noticed I said 'major' gripes as not interested in the fussy p**cks,you know the 'a sparrow landed on my bonnet & left a scratch... I demand a new car/respray' type However will try & answer your questions,



Generally technical help is as good as other manufacturers.Major gripe is the 'fax to TeSeO' system......crap! Not good when you have to queue for fax machine behind office staff/salesman who are faxing silly pictures to each another.Even then it's a hope I get a reply today! no good if customer due back soon etc....really need a dedicated phoneline direct to TeSeO with a ID number to identify yourself/dealer,most other manufacturers do it(or directly lik to diagnostic machine)why can't Fiat?




A sensor is a sensor (of whichever type) understand how it operates then you understand the readings it produces under particular conditions and the way the ECU acts under this information.Intermittent faults are the hardest/most awkward,but if explained clearly to the customer I find the customer is very understanding and know you are doing your best under difficult circumstanes to identify the fault.They realise it may take a few dealer visits but it's nice to 'cushion' this by collecting/delivering the car to ease the customers inconvience.



Training is as good as other manufacturers from what I have experienced.Instructor knowledge is very good & time is spent explaining any queries,new car courses keep tech up to date.Uncharted problems? well having a ongoing one now & all available information has been released to myself so you could say they have done everything they possibly can.



This is where we get into the realm of almost politics! Can we get parts next day..generally yes but it's more expensive & cuts proffits,Well as far as i'm concerned the car should be fixed & back on road ASAP,not a view of management though alot of the time for the above reason.
I find the parts system not very clear with alot of time wasted trying to identify parts....parts department rather the tech identify the part incase it's wrong & has to be sent back with a resulting surcharge (and customer annoyance) & tech rather parts order part as they use the system daily and it's their job! Items under a certain value cannot be returned,this results in arguments between service & parts department who should absorb the costs.This is true of all manufacturers and not just Fiat.
Salesmen.......well they only talk to you when they need a job urgently done so in the 'food chain' they are placed below flora.All departments have targets to be met,again personally i'd rather see more time spent on jobs/making sure customer is happy.I dont agree with this 'f*ck em' attitude,the car (someones hard earned cash/pride & joy) has been brought here to be fixed by experts and it should be done in a proffesional manner.On the other side of the coin some customers deserve it as they think they can bring their car in on a friday afternoon & get it fixed straight away...what they dont realise is bookings have already been taken by customers (sometimes weeks beforehand) and the work load for that day is completely booked up and these customer should come first.
Obviously parts wrongly boxed are not the dealers fault & it does happen often unfortunally.I would like to see techs being asked more about how long a job should take and being more involved in customer relations i.e. talking to the customer even reassuring them them the fault will be rectified as soon as,this rarely happens as it means 'lost time' but I still strongly suggest everyone asks to speak to the tech working on their car if they have any queries or are not too sure of something.This again reassures the customer & improves relations.There is no better feeling than a customer asking for 'you' to work on their car or even 'tell the tech who worked on my car thanks for doing a good job' because you will NEVER get a thanks from management!

Ooops rambled on abit much there......as usual

:yeahthat: What a lot of people misunderstand is that some garages are bad but most clients are :tosser: Yes they usually have to pay a lot of money but what people forget (quite intentionally I reckon as well) is that the tech or bodyshop personel only see a very minute percentage of it. There's no excuse for shoddy workmanship but when you are only being paid £7-8 per hour for doing a fully skilled job you have no real incentive apart from the fact that you enjoy the work, but when clients become abusive that soon disappears. & before anyone says "well you don't have to do the job" I would just like to say you are unaware of this when you start your training particularly if you've no comunication with the client, therefore getting no feedback! Looks like I'm going on a bit now!

 

[NumanR]

Intermittent problems are a real pain to diagnose, but customers dont understand that a computer doesnt tell a technician what the problem is, its a clue for the technician to look in a certain area. For example, how many times have I read on this forum, "My car has failed the MOT emissions test, I fitted a new lambda sensor but it hasnt changed, can anyone help?" Why would you rush out and change the lambda sensor? Daves reply is often "try injector cleaner", now with this fault, you can check parameters used by an ecu and tell what is wrong. The fault is there, its constant, it can be measured statically in a controlled environment. Easy to diagnose.
Another example, a car engine does not start intermittently, started doing this 3 months ago, has happened five times in total, and customers brother in law has tried to fix it. Basically BIL has put in loads of rogue errors, the customer doesnt know if the code light stays on etc etc. Unless that fault occurs when in the workshop, with the information that you get it is impossible to diagnose the fault.

I have a customer who cant believe that "in a modern world a main dealer cant fix this car", :bang: He expects me to fit replacement parts to the car that COULD cause this fault and let him try it or refund the money if I am wrong with my educated guess. This car is five years old, no warranty, and the customer thinks the car is cr.p because it has broken down in its fifth year since new and "shouldnt Fiat do something for free?"

If I am spending £50 of someone elses money on their car, then I need to be sure that I am correct in my diagnosis, not guessing. Computers dont tell the technician what is wrong, never believe that computers can take the place of a skilled technician, they cant, they are a tool used by techs to help them do a job, Computers dont do the job for techs!

 

[T14086]

but what people forget (quite intentionally I reckon as well) is that the tech or bodyshop personel only see a very minute percentage of it. There's no excuse for shoddy workmanship but when you are only being paid £7-8 per hour for doing a fully skilled job you have no real incentive apart from the fact that you enjoy the work,

£7/8 hour........I earn same as I could in a bakers! Yes you have to enjoy the job but like I mentioned above a simple thank you is really welcomed

but when clients become abusive that soon disappears

I just walk away,I ain't paid for that,thats for the managers.

"well you don't have to do the job" I would just like to say you are unaware of this when you start your training particularly if you've no comunication with the client, therefore getting no feedback!

Ain't easy getting another job these days aswell,Ice cream man wanted....well I replaced a bulb in one once am I experienced enough?

Agree about examiner Numan,plus electrical parts non-returnable so you have to be right!

 

[daftcars.com]

I'm sorry for the tone of my original post. I didnt mean to rubbish all your cars. I've had nothing but trouble with the car for two years, no help from the dealer and no help fron Fiat themselves. The dealer says " we'll ask Fiat for you" and Fiat say "go to the dealer, they sold you the car". I was very close to taking legal action, but decided I could do without the hassle, so cut my losses and I'll never deal with Fiat again. This is my experience and my choice. I know that all Fiats won't be like mine was, and some of you are happy with your dealer. You ( 3 door drivers) have one of the best looking cars on the road, good luck to you.
I went to France twice in the Stilo and it didn't really let me down. It was powerful ( 133BHP - more than a 2 ltr focus) and I got 40 MPG on a long run. However, I put on three sets of front tyres in 26,000 miles, due to the wear on the very inner edge, and in the snow the car was undriveable. The problem was suposed to have been fixed three times. They accepted there was a problem yet refused me new tyres, or even a percentage towards them.
The final straw was when I had a front tyre blowout. This was potentially very dangerous, and I'd had enough. On went the spare, and round I went to the Renault dealer. I got a 100 BHP Diesel Clio which has easily averaged 60MPG since I got it. Yes it's smaller, but I have another car for shipping the kids around etc, and it's lighter and fun to drive.
This is an excellent forum, so keep it going. Look after your Fiats and good luck ( you'll need it ;-) )

 

[daftcars.com]

Your advice is going to fall on deaf ears all the lot round here like fiats for some reason

Not really advice. Just adding my name to the list of unhappy ex-Fiat drivers, for future reference. Not just "fans" of Fiat come to this forum. People looking for advice, help and recommendations look in. Maybe a potential customer will read my post, and the replies, and decide that Fiat have too many problems. Maybe they'll like the way some have jumped in to praise their cars, and defent Fiat, and they'll buy a great looking three door Stilo. Their decision.

 

[daftcars.com]

Did you come on here just to stir up trouble and slate peoples cars?

No. ( Trouble? Slate peoples cars? No not at all. What gives you that idea?)

 

[T14086]

Maybe a potential customer will read my post, and the replies, and decide that Fiat have too many problems. Maybe they'll like the way some have jumped in to praise their cars, and defent Fiat, and they'll buy a great looking three door Stilo. Their decision.

Thats fair enough but aslong as potential customers realise only those with problems really post here not those whose cars are running great.Quite funny reading those along the lines of 'had my Fiat but it has started to misfire,only had it 4 years'

 

[Stu DemonD]

I am sure the Renault forums has just as many issues - alongside most other car forums :chin:

 

[custard]

lets be honest,a high percentage of car drivers(especially new cars) seek out a forum when they have a problem?
for me it was looking for potential problems before i got a cinq so im in a different situation

 

[Hellcat]

I am sure the Renault forums has just as many issues - alongside most other car forums :chin:

Yep the Renault forums have issues. They also have car problems.

 

[Koa]

Can I just say, that when or IF I get a satisfactory outcome from taking my car to a Fiat dealers I will be posting it on the forum.

I can understand how you tech guys feel about customers complaining about stuff that is out of your hands, but I only complain when I know 100% in the right.

I thought I had a good thing going with my dealer after the last visit. I got to speak to the tech guy directly, he even picked me up from home to take me to collect my car. However, he gave me all the crap about taking care of my car and he's the one to see for anymore problems blah blah blah. He tried to tell me the matrix display that was fitted is only available in brand new models
He told me he had taken all the care in the world with my car because he has a nice modded car too.
Turns out that when he fitted the third brake light ( which incidentaly didn't need replacing ) He done the same thing that the last guy done. He put the parts back onto the car when he had broken them and tried to hide that fact.
I only discovered this because of fitting the new spoiler. I took the interior trim off to find a clip had been broken and was hanging off due to the fact it had been stuck back on with silicone.
Why didn't they just order a new part :bang:

I went in the other day to see the manager, I TOLD him, I'm not arguing about this, get me a new part and I will not be using this garage for anything I have to pay for.

I have a service due at the end of the month So i'll be going elsewhere.

There's nothing wrong with the cars in comparison to other makes it's the bad dealers that are giving Fiat a bad name. I think thats the reason we have so few Stilos in this area, all the dealers around here are crap. But for some reason Fiat don't take any notice of this

 

[StiloSport]

The only time I've had an issue with my dealer is when one of my plug leads failed on me. Got the "Engine Failure - Stop Engine" warning etc. and phoned my dealer. They told me to get the car to them because they "weren't allowed to collect customers cars".... ******** I told them, they couldn't expect me to drive my car 14 miles on 3 cylinders! So I got my brother in law who worked for a breakdown service to tow my car to the garage and presented my dealer with the bill which they refused to pay. I phoned Fiat themselfs and explained the situation and they asked to speak to the manager of my local dealer. Within 2 mins on the phone to them, they agreed to pay for the recovery charges and took a plug lead from one of the display cars (they didn't have one in stock) and I was back on the road 20 mins later. My car was only 2 days old BTW...

I wouldn't so much say the problem lies with the mechanics but more the (service) managers. Sometimes they just need a kick up the arse to show they are not always right (just like some customers ).

 

[wozza]

I am sure the Renault forums has just as many issues - alongside most other car forums :chin:

You'd deffinately be right there. But my clio is absolutely perfect when people knew i was getting rid of mine i had so many offers from them wanting to buy it cause its been a cracking wee car never had a single problem yet and it gets given a lot of stick from me. They are good little cars and the diesel engines are brilliant. Just not very big and was probably the wrong time to buy a clio with the new model coming out now shoulda waited a little longer and they woulda dropped in price more.

 

[poggy]

I have a few problems with Fiat dealers, but I have had the same problems with lot's of other manufacturers apart from BMW & Volvo. The BMW dealers will bend over backwards to sort out your problems and the service costs are a lot less than our Fiat. They also always collect & deliver the car and it comes back spotless inside and out. So it can't just be a money issue, the quality of service has to start at the top and work down through the chain. If the managers and directors of Fiat UK don't aim for higher standards then there is no driving force for the dealers to do so.

At BMW whenever you have your car serviced you are contacted a week or so later by BMW to make sure you are happy with the service. Once or twice I had some minor issues which I mentioned and within 24 hours the dealer was back on the phone to sort them out. This is the same story at Volvo, although service costs are horrific.

The one thing I can't accept is changing components to try and cure a fault and then charging the customer even if they turn out not to be the cause of the fault. If it is not the cause, you can't charge the customer for the work as it was not necessary. Apart from intermittent faults which I accept are much harder, every component can be tested. I had an example with our heated seats on the Ulysse, the drivers side didn't work from new. The dealer said it was the switch and I said let's test it then. The dealer said no, they would order a new switch. I got a multi-meter and found there was no supply to the switch and also tested the switch to make sure it was working. When the switch turned up, the dealer installed it and it made no difference. I said there was no supply and the dealer said it would have to be connected to an examiner before they could do anything. Anyway I said it was ridiculous and the fault was more likely to be a poor connection from when the car was built and it would be better to trace back through the loom. Anyway I took the car home and it took me about 10 minutes to find that a connector under a plastic cover at the rear of the seat was simply not connected. I plugged it in and everything worked.

Based on the dealer approach if it hadn't been under warranty, I would have paid for a new switch and the labour to fit and then for the examiner to be connected (which wouldn't have found the fault) and then finally for the proper fault to be found. Probably well over £150.00. So I would have paid £150 for a job, which for any skilled person would have taken 10 minutes to trace without needing any parts. So I would basically be paying for the incompetence of the garage technician in this case. This is not a dig at anybody who works at Fiat or on this forum, but many garages employ fitters rather than engineers who just keep changing components (at customer cost) until they find the problem.

But at £7-8 per hour you aren't always going to attract the best engineers as they get better pay in other sectors. Fortunately many people love working on cars (like the one's on this forum) so despite the poor pay they still want to work in the industry and those are one's you hope are working at your dealership. Our local dealer had one, but since he left (for a better paid career) things have gone downhill.

Edit: By the way if you think Fiat are not the best, they make Ford look like Rolls Royce.

 

[sammiboo]

come on people, i am sure many of you had been peed right off with your cars and some have come close to wanting to sell it. I know that I have and H definately has.

I think every FIAT i have owned has peed me off one way or another, my punto was an appalling car, i didnt even drive it for a year.

I bought the bravo and the cambelt went within 6 months. But totally loved the car styling and drive. Also the second bravo i had problems with the sunroof, everytime it peed it down the car would be full of water and in the end i had to strip out the car dry everything off and solve the problem. THis is a common problem in the bravos.

Coupe - well i wont go there, but in less than 12 months of ownership one thing after another and what goes wrong on a coupe turbo, is never cheap to fix

Then back to the Bravo within 2 days of buying it, it misfires!!!!

Now tell me why do i keep buying fiats

Dealers, I wont ever go to a dealer again (H wont even go to one)

Took the coupe in to get a door handle fixed, I took it to fiat cos the coupe isnt a easy every day car so I was willing to pay a bit more to get a proper job done.

Got the car back, and all the painted interior strip was scratched to hell! and also the top of the door. I went back to the dealer ( I hadn't even left the car park) and told them about the scrathes, the guy behind the counter denied it was them so i took him to the car and he couldnt deny it.

There is no way I would go back to a dealer, they pleasure of them "fixing" my door handle was in excess of £100 and as a bonus my car was scratch.

It wasnt a sparrow scratch as someone mentioned earlier, I have never seen a sparrow sratch down to the primer before It was severe scratches caused by a lovely dealer

I dont know why people go to dealers when its out of warranty, especially when many of them are known to be incompetent.