Technical  Brake bleeding issue

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Technical  Brake bleeding issue

@Slotman
This ^^ won't work for bleeding the rear brakes. The linkage has to be connected and the valve adjusted before trying to bleed the brakes.
With the linkage disconnected, the comp. valve remains closed.
Hi! What might the manual been have been referring to under "installation" in the pic i posted?, sorry for being dumb here...under hydraulic pressure will the end of the compensator where it touches the end of the torsion rod move in? Or move out? For some reason I was thinking the valve itself needed to have pressure in it prior to adjusting...I've already learned one valuable lesson, and that is when replacing the hydraulic system that's been sitting for a time, that the compensator is equally as important as the master cylinder, and the calipers.
Now I want to learn the lesson of how to sucessfully bleed the system, and I guess my manual isn't helping any...
 
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I don't know why your manual says to bleed the brakes with the compensator torsion bar/linkage disconnected.
I've been doing some checks across various manuals :geek: and am now nearly as confused as you seem to be - I say 'nearly' because I have the benefit of training and experience on these cars. ;)

I actually found 2 versions of compensator valve that were used on the 124's - one type had a spring that I reckoned might close? the comp. valve as I mentioned in an earlier post (probably fitted on very early models) and a 2nd type of comp. valve (fitted on your later car) whose valve/internal plunger moved outwards under hydraulic pressure (as you suggested) thereby closing off the flow of fluid if the short end of the torsion bar allows the plunger to move outwards - i.e. under heavy braking, the rear of the car rises, the axle drops relative to the body, the linkage from the rear axle operates the torsion bar, moving its short end away from the comp. valve plunger, allowing it to move outwards and close off the flow of fluid. Clear as mud, good!

Here's a sectional diagram of the internal workings of the compensator valve,
Top pic. shows the valve in normal position, plunger (they call it a piston) is being prevented from moving outwards by the end of the torsion bar, allowing fluid to flow normally.
Bottom pic. shows the plunger/piston having moved outwards, = valve closed, no fluid being allowed to flow, as a result of the torsion bar having moved away from the plunger due to the axle dropping relative to the body under heavy braking.

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I still think that the compensator valve linkage (torsion bar etc.) should be connected and adjusted to ensure the com. valve remains open for successful bleeding of the brakes. And besides, it can't do any harm having the comp. linkage connected and adjusted when bleeding the brakes.
When refitting the brake pipes to the comp. valve, ensure that the metal pipe from the master cylinder goes into the lower port and then the metal pipe going to the rear brakes goes into the upper port.

I discussed bleeding brakes in my post #2. Regardless of the method used, it should be possible to get a good flow of fluid at the rear brakes providing the compensator valve remains open.

I don't know if you have a Haynes 'Shop manual, but it gives a few tips on manual brake bleeding if you're having difficulty. Iirc, you were using a vacuum bleeder and then tried manual bleeding.

1) If doing manual bleeding, have your assistant press the pedal one full stroke followed by 3 shorter more rapid strokes, allowing the pedal to return of its own accord each time. This may have to be repeated a number of times if there is a lot of air in the system. When no more air is observed coming from the bleed screw, tighten the bleed screw on a downward stroke.

2) When manually bleeding the REAR brakes, pump the pedal slowly and allow one or two seconds between each pedal stroke.

3) If you find that one or more brakes is taking a long time to bleed, the problem may that air is being drawn past the bleed screw threads during the return stroke of the pedal when the bleed screw is still loose - to overcome this problem, only loosen the bleed screw by 1/2 to 1 turn, and temporarily tighten the bleed screw at the end of each downward pedal stroke and only loosen it when another downstroke is about to happen.
 
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Unfortunately I wasn't fast enough to prevent the fluid reservoir from emptying so a complete bleeding will be required but hopefully not Re bench bleeding the master..phew, that was a job!
You might only have to bleed the rear brakes (there is usually a divider inside the brake fluid reservoir that retains enough fluid for 1 brake circuit to continue operating if the other circuit has a leak).

I don't think I ever had to 'bench-bleed' a master cylinder 'back in the day' - just loosened the hard lines at the master cylinder and gently pressed the brake pedal, sometimes gravity will do the work for you, if you're patient.
 
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Thank you sir! This is great Info, and things are starting to make more sense...I wish I could see the piston inside which might explain more .., today I got the assembly in, loosely in place and will follow up with the final stuff, and I'm following your advice..I will do the adjustment to the torsion rod, being a machinist by trade, and even though it's a stick, with my calipers, and sandpaper I made a guage exactly to the dimension, I did notice fiat was nice enough to press a half coin shaped "niche" into the underside of the floor above the connecting arm as a perfect place for the ruler to measure down .
I had the master bleeder plastic fittings and hoses, 3 of them, I used the old fluid reservoir on a pole like life support , and bled everything back in to it, and did see some air go by but possibly this process was unneeded.my front brakes seemed perfect so I may, or not bleed them again.
Again, thank you for your very valuable advice!
I'm really hoping to earn my compensator valve replacement" merit badge" here dang it :)
Terry
 

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May I suggest (without causing offence) that you doublecheck the comp. valve adjustment figure that you intend using?
My Haynes manual (which admittedly only covers cars from 1967 to 1977) gives a measurement of 5.787 +/- 0.197 inches for the 124 COUPE and 3.740 +/- 0.197 inches for the 124 SPIDER. I realise your car is a later Spider with the big bumpers? that afaik had a raised ride height so maybe Fiat changed the c.v. setting to the larger figure for your model?

Nothing wrong with using a wood stick to measure things - after all, they used to make rulers with fine graduations from wood before plastic took over.

I'm not familiar with the master bleeder with 3 hoses system that you used - I'm assuming this was for bench bleeding the master cylinder, not for bleeding the brakes on the car. And I trust you have not re-used any of the brake fluid that you've bled through the system - it may still contain little bubbles of air, (unless of course it's left to stand for a few days?).

Re - your compensator valve replacement "merit badge"? Was it not in the packaging that the comp. valve came in? :). If it wasn't, I'd complain :giggle:
 
Thank you for pointing that out...now I'm confused again though, in my Pininfarina manual no model year is mentioned to the 5.787 dimension, it does state its measured from underside of floor I believe, to center of rod end,I have a Chilton manual that states the 3.74 dimension but it says from " the rubber buffer resting surface" so it looks like it's from center of rod end? To what ever the rubber buffer resting surface is? Which I have no Idea of what that is? But the rubber cover is already attached so I hope I don't have to remove it again..confused again darn it...it seems the 2 manuals are taking measurements from different places? I was assuming my pininfarinia manual is good for my 1979 spider as it says it covers up to fuel injection models...:(
 

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May I suggest (without causing offence) that you doublecheck the comp. valve adjustment figure that you intend using?
My Haynes manual (which admittedly only covers cars from 1967 to 1977) gives a measurement of 5.787 +/- 0.197 inches for the 124 COUPE and 3.740 +/- 0.197 inches for the 124 SPIDER. I realise your car is a later Spider with the big bumpers? that afaik had a raised ride height so maybe Fiat changed the c.v. setting to the larger figure for your model?

Nothing wrong with using a wood stick to measure things - after all, they used to make rulers with fine graduations from wood before plastic took over.

I'm not familiar with the master bleeder with 3 hoses system that you used - I'm assuming this was for bench bleeding the master cylinder, not for bleeding the brakes on the car. And I trust you have not re-used any of the brake fluid that you've bled through the system - it may still contain little bubbles of air, (unless of course it's left to stand for a few days?).

Re - your compensator valve replacement "merit badge"? Was it not in the packaging that the comp. valve came in? :). If it wim aasn't, I'd complain :giggle:
It does look like the difference in the dimensions between the manuals might be because there taken from 2 different places? Also I'm wondering if the " rubber buffer resting surface" might be at the bottom of the rubber boot on the comp valve?
I wonder if the fact that one end of the "x" dimension, is taken from 2 different places, that when the center of the torsion rod is set to either one of the 2 measurements , that it will end up being the same place? I guess I've got nothing better to do that see if it's true :)
 
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I've been doing some checking (as usual :geek: ) and was reading that 1978 saw the introduction of the 2000 engine (87 bhp), 1979 saw the introduction of fuel injection (102 bhp) and the option of automatic transmission (which came with a 12/43 rear axle ratio instead of the 10/39 ratio and a trans. oil cooler in the base of the main radiator). The 2000 model was fitted with heavy bumpers incorporating hydraulic rams designed to absorb a 5 mph impact without damage and the RIDE HEIGHT was raised to bring the bumpers up to regulation height.

Iirc, (@Slotman) your car is a '79 with auto trans. and running on a carb? Has your car got the heavy bumpers? And is the ride height of your car raised compared with earlier models?

What I'm trying to figure out is which measurement figure for setting the rear brake compensator valve is correct for your car.
All the manuals I've consulted show 5.78 inches for the 124 Coupe and 124 Sedan, 5.0 inches for the 124 Wagon and 3.74 inches for the 124 Spider , but as I've said my tech info only goes up to 1977.

The reason for the different setting figures (5.78" vs 3.74") between the 124 Coupe+Sedan and 124 Spider, I would suggest, is due to the Spider having a shortened version of the 124 Coupe/Sedan floorpan, i.e. it has a shorter wheelbase - therefore the body will pitch less under heavy braking i.e the rear will lift a lesser amount than on the Coupe/Sedan - so the smaller figure is used on the Spider. Unless of course, the ride height has been raised, in which case the amount of pitch will also increase, therefore possibly needing the larger figure for setting the comp. valve. (Contemporary Road-testers reported that with the raised ride height, the 124 Spider now suffered from body roll in corners...). But, how might one determine which setting dimension is correct for your car?

One possible way might be to temporarily attach the torsion bar to the axle link, then measure the distance from the centre of the top of the axle link vertically to the body with the axle supported on axle stands (this would be the same as normal ride height). Going by the diagram you provided above (which shows 3 positions of the rear axle, heavily loaded, normal load and unloaded), then judging by eye, if the distance measured is circa 4 inches, then the 5.87 inch setting should be correct for your car - however if the measurement is a lot less, then perhaps the 3.74 inch figure is the correct one for your car.

I'm not sure what the 'rubber buffer resting surface' might refer to but I don't think it means the rubber boot over the comp. valve.
The only rubber buffer I can recall being in that area of the car is the rubber buffer above the centre of the rear axle, perhaps the instructions mean the surface where this rubber bump stop is fitted?
 
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Hi! My 79 spider does have the extremely heavy bumpers, and is an automatic with the Trans cooler in the radiator, and I believe it to be factory carburated , I don't think here anyway, fuel injection came until 1980 or so.
What I find odd is my Pininfarina manual states it's for "spiders" and lists 1975 to 1985 and 2000, and the only dimension I can find in it is, the 5.787 measurement which is about the distance I recall it being prior to disassembly. But it could have been wrong once already with the bleeding instructions I showed, so who knows if it's wrong again.
Only my crappy Chilton manual lists the 3.74 measurement, and it doesn't appear to be coming from the under side of the floor, I have no idea what the " rubber buffer resting surface" is , and thus no idea where to measure from...I'm reposting a closer view of its sketch.
I guess I'm going to try the 5.787 measurement first, as it appears there's a flat spot pressed in the underside of the floor just above the linkage arm, as if it was put there to measure from, and its about the distance i remember prior to disassembly..guess it will either work, or it won't, if it doesn't again I have no idea how to measure the other number.
Am I correct the 5.787 measurement is taken from the underside of the floor, to the center of the rod end bushing?
Thank you for the time you have already spent researching! It's very much appreciated!
P.s. the ride height does seem to be the taller version by eye anyway I guess due to regulations.
 

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These sketches, in the manuals are pretty "sketchy" as far as interpretation goes :)
And for my old job I passed advanced blueprint reading for detail, assembly, and installation drawings...if I was the editor of either of the manuals I would have insisted on a specific one view drawing of where both ends of the "x" dimensions are taken from, and not included it in the info showing the 3 positions of the torsion rod link arm which makes things confusing.. 😀
 
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I agree with both of you re it being critical to get the compensator correctly adjusted, but for getting the air out of the system I would just set the adjustment so the valve is open so I had a good firm brake pedal.
Personally in the absence of precise adjustment data I would do a few road tests on a quiet road and set it up how it works best in the real World under normal driving conditions.
I have worked on several vehicles with compensators stuck open and stuck closed over the years and the owners were totally unaware of it.:(
I also had a Nissan Cabstar that was normally driven empty/unloaded and to pass the MOT I had to adjust the compensator to the Mot testers satisfaction for the rolling road brake test, driving it back it was positively dangerous, every sniff of the brakes locked the rear end, so I quickly readjusted it to my satisfaction.;)
 
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