Technical  Brake bleeding issue

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Technical  Brake bleeding issue

Slotman

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Hi everyone! So I've tried to do everything right, but no fluid flow to rear brakes, car is a 79 spider stored indoors for 13 years, car never had brakes on 4 wheels when I bought it, then it sat...fast forward to now, just finished replacing 4 new calipers, 4 new rotors, 5 new rubber brake hoses, new pads, new master cylinder.
The car is on jack stands , and sitting level , the rear end is not hanging, its supported at the axle tubes...the master cylinder was first bench bled, and I did get significant air out, then, on the car started with a vacuum powered bleeder, no fluid, not a drop comes out at the rear, not on either side, yet great fluid flow in both the front lines.
I'm worried something might be stuck in the compensater valve in the rear from sitting all this time? Or if there might be a proportioning valve somewhere that locked years ago, only allowing fluid flow to the front?, since the car never had all its brakes when I bought it...frustrating to say the least since the brake system replacement went pretty smooth until now....any advice on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
Terry
 
Afaik, there is only one valve in the braking system- this is the 'brake compensator valve' mounted above and connected by a linkage to the rear axle - this valve can also be referred to as a 'brake pressure regulating or proportioning valve'. This valve has been discussed in various previous threads.

It's purpose is to prevent the rear wheels locking up under heavy braking. Under heavy braking, load is transferred onto the front wheels (front of car dips) and load is reduced on rear wheels (rear of car raises) - this reduction of load on the rear wheels might cause the rear wheels to lock up if the brake force being applied wasn't reduced.
The brake compensator valve (C.V.) is controlled by the linkage connecting it to the rear axle. The C.V. is normally held open when the car is sitting normally on its wheels or driving. But if heavy braking takes place, when the rear of the car rises, the linkage allows the C.V. to close, reducing the brake fluid pressure applying the rear brakes.
The internal valve in the C.V. is spring loaded to cause it to close. The linkage connected to the rear axle only opens and then holds open the valve. The C.V. and its operating linkage is adjustable by a slot in its mounting bracket - it normally doesn't need any re-adjustment in service. Iirc, you have a 'shop manual? - the adjustment procedure should be covered?
The reason for bleeding the brakes with the rear axle supported is to ensure the C.V. is held open (same as when the car is on its wheels).

:sleep: O.K. Enough of me :geek: explaining stuff...

What you presumably want to know is what to do next, especially as regards the compensator valve?

There are 2 metal pipes (hard lines) going to the compensator valve - one is the fluid feed from the master cylinder, the other is the output from the C.V. to the 5th brake hose and then on to the rear brakes via the 3 way union on the rear axle.

Loosen the fluid feed pipe at the compensator valve by a few turns, press the brake pedal slowly and fully a few times and check if fluid is coming out of the slackened union (this may take some time if air is trapped in the feed line) - if fluid is flowing, then tighten this union, now loosen the other pipe union at the compensator valve and again press the brake pedal a few times and see if you're also getting a flow of fluid. If not the valve inside the compensator valve has probably stuck or corroded in place.

If stuck, the valve will either have to be renewed or it can be be-built (afaik, seals are available). But, before removing the valve, you might pull back the rubber boot covering the linkage rod where it connects to the C.V. and see if you can free it off.
If you disconnect the linkage rod from the axle you can try operating the rod and check if the valve is being operated or is stuck/seized. (pushing up on the link to the axle should push the C.V. plunger inwards).

Some additional points :-

The C.V. usually seizes in the open position (assuming the car has been stored on its wheels) and therefore shouldn't affect brake bleeding.

When pressing the brake pedal as suggested above, you might find that the brake pedal doesn't travel fully to the floor, if this is the case, don't worry, it will be because you've already bled the air from the front brakes - and as you have dual circuit brakes, one brake circuit not working e.g no rear brakes, means the pedal will still operate the remaining circuit, so the pedal will travel 1/2 way (or a bit more) to the floor and then no further.

I've vacuum bled brakes in the past and found that sometimes it doesn't get all the air out. I've seen recommendations to vacuum bleed, then let car sit e.g. overnight and if you suspect there might still be some air trapped, do a quick conventional manual bleed (using the brake pedal) to clear any remaining air (any remaining air will rise to the top of the caliper, next to the bleed screw, overnight). Some people even tap the brake caliper with a soft face hammer to dislodge any little air bubbles stubbornly clinging to the inside of the caliper piston bore.

Afaik, some people 'gravity bleed' the rear brakes on the 124's - i.e. open the rear bleed screws and let gravity push the brake fluid to the rear brakes, it can take some time... - Just don't let the reservoir run low or you'll have to start again.

P.S. Well done on your progress so far and happy to hear you managed to fit those pesky brake caliper lock plates with ease :)
 
Thanks 124bc1, I just attempted a manual bleed in the rear with someone in the car...there's aprox 2 inches of pedal off the floor, as you mentioned this is likely due to the front brakes....when I opened either the left rear, or the right rear nothing happened to the pedal, it didn't go lower to the floor so it seems there is no flow what so ever to the rear...I thought I had once read about a proportion valve in the front on the frame or something but I'm guessing it was for a different year...I will read , and reread your suggestions, and my manual and start checking out the compensater....I've viewed it already and it looks quite difficult to service...I have seen replacements I thought in the past pretty cheap but looks like a bear to replace...
 
I don't know for sure if there are any pressure regulating valves anywhere else on your car (e.g. a common location might be at the master cylinder) as I only have tech info on the 124's up to 1976, so I'm afraid you'll have to consult your own 'shop manual re your car which iirc is a '79?

Afaik, replacement compensator valves are available from the usual suspects at reasonable cost - indeed, it might not be worth ordering seals etc to try a rebuild of the old valve as they can be badly seized and corroded internally. But I would try to verify if this valve is the cause of your problem, it certainly sounds likely, before ordering up yet more parts.

Iirc, it's easier to remove the valve and its mounting bracket (it's a bit like a cage) plus the operating linkage/rod as one assembly and then work on it on the workbench. The bracket could probably do with a clean up and repaint. You'll see that where the valve is mounted to the bracket, there is one hole and one slotted hole - the slotted hole is for adjusting the valve by allowing it to swivel a small amount.

If you do decide to fit a new valve, just assemble the valve loosely to the mounting bracket, fit to the car, connecting the metal pipes as you do so, then tighten the bolts and pipe unions - this saves struggling trying to insert the pipes and engaging the pipe nuts etc,

Don't be worried about adjusting the valve operating linkage, it's straight forward and should be in the 'shop manual.
 
I don't know for sure if there are any pressure regulating valves anywhere else on your car (e.g. a common location might be at the master cylinder) as I only have tech info on the 124's up to 1976, so I'm afraid you'll have to consult your own 'shop manual re your car which iirc is a '79?

Afaik, replacement compensator valves are available from the usual suspects at reasonable cost - indeed, it might not be worth ordering seals etc to try a rebuild of the old valve as they can be badly seized and corroded internally. But I would try to verify if this valve is the cause of your problem, it certainly sounds likely, before ordering up yet more parts.

Iirc, it's easier to remove the valve and its mounting bracket (it's a bit like a cage) plus the operating linkage/rod as one assembly and then work on it on the workbench. The bracket could probably do with a clean up and repaint. You'll see that where the valve is mounted to the bracket, there is one hole and one slotted hole - the slotted hole is for adjusting the valve by allowing it to swivel a small amount.

If you do decide to fit a new valve, just assemble the valve loosely to the mounting bracket, fit to the car, connecting the metal pipes as you do so, then tighten the bolts and pipe unions - this saves struggling trying to insert the pipes and engaging the pipe nuts etc,

Don't be worried about adjusting the valve operating linkage, it's straight forward and should be in the 'shop manual.
Thank you sir! , seems I have some work to do! Thank you for your suggestions for the path forward!
P.s. just had my daughter pump the brakes and hold, and I cracked the line at the master cylinder to the rear, and did get fluid...
Terry
 
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I've never experienced this on any of my vehicles but a friend of mine on an old Rover car we could not get the brakes to bleed or deliver fluid. Can't recall if it was the front or the back brakes but after a lot of head scratching we found that the flexible hoses had internally collapsed / deteriorated blocking the flow. Once we got the hoses off and cut them in half the blockage was obvious. Oddly the outside of the hoses were in fair condition.
 
So wanted to update my progress, first I hate working on the compensator, perhaps I don't have the car high enough, I'm able to squeeze under and access the 2 hard lines in (bottom line), and the line out to rear brakes, but that's all, I can't even see the rubber boot, but can feel it, and can only touch the plastic band securing it with one finger. So with the torsion rod still connected, I loosened the hard line in, someone had rounded the nut off but I don't think they ever got it loose, I finally got it loose and unscrewed it 3 full turns, pumped the brakes 50 times , and checked, no fluid...I then unscrewed it half way out and wiggled the line thinking the line might be stuck at the flair inside, pumped the brakes again, and now I got fluid.
Next I tightened the line in back tight, and tried the power bleeder on right side and got the usual flow I'm used to seeing in the bleeder, yea!, went to drivers side, and got the same fluid flow.
Now the car has excellant pedal, only goes down when pressed about one inch, and is rock solid...thinking at this point its fixèd...however, I always do a manual bleed after, and what I'm seeing doesn't seem normal...but perhaps I'm unfamiliar with this system..I have my clear hose over the bleeder screw, and down in To my jar, and on both rear calipers when someone pumps, and holds the pedal, and I open the screw, only an inch of fluid comes out of the bleeder screw up in to the hose...no air, but not enough fluid to go all the way thru the hose in to the jar.
When I manually bleed the fronts, fluid comes gushing out, fills the hose, and in the jar like I'm used to seeing...
Perhaps this is normal at the rear due to the compensator limiting flow? I'm expecting it to gush out like the fronts.
At this point I'm wondering if something due to corrosion inside the compensator is not allowing the volume like it should? Next I unhooked the torsion rod at the connecting link, made sure the rod was all the way "up" and tried bleeding the rears again and got the same thing, only an inch of fluid up in the hose...but no air, still the brake pedal in solid, and only goes down one inch and feels great....so at this point I'm wondering if the compensator is bad?
If I have to remove it I would like to do it as a unit, rod and all as you mentioned 124bc1, I'm assuming I take off the 2 nuts on the "outside" of the cage? Not the 2 bolts inside the cage that adjust it? Also I'm very confused about understanding the adjustment process, or how you even do it with the compensator in the car, but perhaps its because the cars not high enough...also I've spent all morning staring at my Chilton, and Pininfarina manuals trying to see, and understand where the "x" dimension is measured from but the sketchs are confusing..the 2 manuals seem to be measuring from different places, with 2 different measurments....each show 3 different positions of the linkage arm,
I went on YouTube but only saw one poor video where the person took the inside bolts I believe to be the adjustment bolts out, removed the compensator from the cage and installed a new one, and didn't measure or adjust anything, and called it done so that's no help...
Although I've made progress I'm uneasy, and frustrated with myself not understanding the entire process, and frustrated how hard it is to access this monster...
 
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Sorry for the above super long story :) , to remove the compensator as an assembly, are these the nuts I want to take out?
Not the 2 bolts on the inside that attach the compensator to the cage? I'm assuming I also remove the rod from the linkage arm , and the little bracket attaching it to the body, the it comes out as a unit? Thanks for your patience with me!
 

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Yes, that's the 2 nuts you need to remove.
Usual advice, spray with penetrating fluid a while before trying to loosen them, you don't want to risk shearing them off.

Your problem with reduced fluid flow when bleeding sounds like there's a restriction to fluid flow inside the compensator. It's a very simple device, basically a spring loaded plunger and a couple of seals, iirc the spring is what closes the valve, the torsion rod and linkage opens the valve when the rear axle is loaded.

Iirc, there's an end plug that has to be removed to strip the valve. it can be very tight (might need some heat) and you'll probably have to make up a tool to remove it unless you have a suitable pin wrench - I've simply drilled 2 holes, spaced to match the 2 holes in the plug, in a piece of flat bar and inserted 2 bolts with nuts to hold them in place as a quick fix tool - you could weld the bolts in place if equipped, you might even have a suitable pin wrench to hand, possibly one used when fitting discs to an angle grinder?

Some people, instead of repairing/replacing the compensator valve, fit a 'by-pass' hose instead, but I think it's best to keep to what Fiat intended.

P.S. that's great news about getting a good pedal with a short movement. (y)

I'll check into this mysterious 'x' measurement and see what I can find.
Don't forget to cap any brake pipes that you disconnect to avoid having to do a possibly lengthy brake bleed upon reassembly.
 
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Thank you for your help! I just found a video on ricambi that answered some questions but im wondering if part of my problem accessing the compensator is because my jack stands are supporting the rear end, if I can find a safe place for stands that will let the rear end hang, would that allow more space? It almost doesn't seem possible right now as far as adjusting it...but I know there's a way...a bypass is sounding pretty good right now but I want to accept the challenge, and do it right..
 
Yes, letting the rear axle drop down would surely giver you more room.
It might be possible to position the stands under the brackets that the front ends of the lower axle links/arms are attached to, if they're level. Always try giving the car a good shake before sliding underneath to check that it's securely supported. (just don't position the stands under any area that looks rusty...).

A new compensator valve might be your best option?
 
Thank you sir! After your advice, and watching the ricambi video, I know what must be done...I had been thinking "if I could just see it done once" I can do it, now I have a plan, not seeing it done, it was hard to imagine.now I understand the measurement process as well even though the video doesn't show it.
Tomorrow i will order the compensator, and in my spare time, waiting for it to come, get the unit out and coat the underside area with por 15. And paint the bracket and torsion rod...thank you
 
See the attached PDF re adjusting the load proportioning valve. Two examples. One for the Regata which gives different adjustment weight values for different weight models. One for the Strada Abarth.

If you know what the approximate rear axle load your 124 has then you can make comparisons as I suspect the rear axle loadings are similar.
 

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update, got the little bugger out today, and it took one hour that included repositioning my jack stands...it's not a fun task, but it's doable....hardest part is getting the brake lines loose, heat does help. The new compensator arrives in 2 days. Per 124bc1s suggestion, and the auto ricambe video, it's definitely best to remove it as an assembly rather than to try removing just the compensator, now to clean everything up and prepare for the fun to begin putting it back...snaking it back in there might be more difficult that taking it out....time will tell.
Unfortunately I wasn't fast enough to prevent the fluid reservoir from emptying so a complete bleeding will be required but hopefully not Re bench bleeding the master..phew, that was a job!
P.s. it looks a lot less intimidating once it's out, only about a meter long.
 

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Almost unbelievable, when I removed the compensator boot, this is what poured out...greenish, whitish powder...may help explain why fluid wasn't flowing thru the valve, internally it might be just as corroded, car was stored indoors in a heated environment....I replaced calipers,, rotors, 5 flex fluid hoses, pads, master cylinder ect but in hind sight I'm thinking anyone replacing a brake system in a vintage spider that's been sitting should plan on replacing the compensator as well, seems like just as an important component as they other ones...:)
 

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