Technical bad clutch judder

[sussexa]

this is on a jtdm 16v 150 with a smf conversion, uprated sprung center organic disc, uprated plate, been on car for nearly 30,000 miles good couple of years now (had similar issueover a year or so ago but did clear up, only did it for a day or 2 and nowhere near as bad only once per trip maybe, put it down to dust on disc?.)
just had my car up on ramps for a few days while i redid some intercooler hard pipes,anyway came to test yesterday and on taking up drive to back off ramps juddering a bit, to get out of my drive i have to reverse uphill and turn and the judder was really bad shaking the front end no matter how much i tried to slip the clutch at the bite point it judderd.
got out of drive eventually and onto road flat and straight, came to pull off in 1st bad judder again, hoping it was dust on plate from getting onto ramp i took it for a spin.
on the move no issue at all, no crunching gearchanges no judder when letting out in next gear, no clutch slip.
at moment im back on drive unwilling to take out on road again.
ive searched all judder related posts and looked at the rear engine mounts (x2 for me)accessable from side of car with a power bar and slackened off(were tight)a few turns and then retightned tight.
im a largish fella and gripping engine from above im unable to rock engine in any position.
open to any suggestions for other things to check.
just putting a video up on you tube off camera up on bonnet as i cant see engine movement from drivers seat, but not much movement seen compared to fixed items in engine bay etc.
http://youtu.be/BkEllaBwq7c
many thanks

 

[Davren]

I was going to suggest oil on the clutch disc before watching your video, but it looks more serious than that.

Think you're going to have to take the gearbox out to check flywheel security and condition, clutch and gearbox input shaft and bearing.

 

[sussexa]

I was under car with hairspray to help siilicone couplers stick, anyway for overspray to have gotten in disc?I havnt seen any openings into bellhousing.

 

[sussexa]

Managed to slip it enough to get to flat straight part of drive, plan was to slip enough to overheat disc to burn off anything.
Whilst trying things i put handbrake on and reversed against brake, didnt feel same as before just like normal if you were trying to pull off with brake on, same in 1st could actually feed in untill pulling car against brakes.
Brakes off again still juddering at bite point, if i gave it 2000 revs i can easily slip it and get up drive now straight.
Why would it act normal when pulling Against brake ?
Doesnt appear to be idling different or nasty rattles from clutch area, i cant imagine anything broke or loose in there.

 

[Davren]

Doubt it's going to be this, but have you checked the top engine and gearbox mountings. Perhaps they are getting wound up tight when in reverse with the brake on. Does the vibrating also stop in forward gear with the brake on?

 

[sussexa]

Yes pulls nice in 1st against handbrake?
Thanks for replies it can stay on drive this week and ill back up drive every day see if it gets any better.
If a piece of disc has broke hopefully can grind it down.

 

[sussexa]

done another vid if it helps anyone else in future with that rear engine mount, it can be seen here with the yellow square on it and can be seen not moving much or at all compared to the bracket its mounted in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr3X0tdonzI&feature=youtu.be
just uploading another from above(not on bonnet this time) to show engine vibration/movement.
wont be uploaded for1/2 hr(not uploaded)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NvAo3oXMC4&feature=youtu.be
starting to agree on pulling clutch,

 

[spyshagg]

my car does this when I pull away a bit faster than usual. Its a selespeed abarth. I just let it be this way and pull away slower.

 

[sussexa]

dohh, gave it a bit of tough love on a hill hoping to burn disc a bit and bang total loss of drive.
towed to specialist but wont get looked at this week, will update after stripped.

 

[BLKC99]

Hi there sussexa

You mentioned that you have had a single mass flywheel conversion done on your JTD 150,I am not surprised that you are experiencing the clutch/flywheel juddering, if anything I am very surprised that the juddering once you had the conversion done actually went away.

I have seen some videos and read some stories from people over the VW forum who converted the DMF`s on their TDI`s and since the conversion loud rattling and juddering is what you get, the concensus is that if you convert to a sinlge mass flwywheel on the VW TDI`s this is what you will have to put with.

Here is a clip of a MK4 VW TDI with a converted single mass:

 

[sussexa]

The chatter i lived with, the clutch and smf have been faultless for a few years now.
This judder started like a switch friday and stayed the same until i just blew it.
I,ll feed back any findings but dont think its smf connected, more 400nm connected.

 

[BLKC99]

The chatter i lived with, the clutch and smf have been faultless for a few years now.
This judder started like a switch friday and stayed the same until i just blew it.
I,ll feed back any findings but dont think its smf connected, more 400nm connected.

That is the verdict from other people over Ze "Deutsche" Forum lol the SMF`s kits seem to be reliable and the way to go if you want to modify and push your car beyond standard remap limits but you have to live with the symptoms that come with it, judder, loud rattling and vibrations through your clutch pedal.

Other people have started some "boffin" stories which has seen no real proof yet but simply go by facts all relating to how the cars were designed in the first place, this "mumbo jumbo" is that the SMF`s will over time keep putting more strain on your drive shaft and gearbox and cause over time damage to these units. The simple theory is that the main purpose of the DMF is to absorb vibrations/pressure away from the drive shaft and transmission unit, taking the DMF away you reverse the process and in some peoples minds over the "Deutsche" Forum you begin to put more strain on these units.

 

[sussexa]

Yes its primarily there for comfort and smoothness as people demand a standard nowadays, its function is to soak up and counter frquencys of vibration and jerkyness of hiqh torque modern diesels and isolate them from trany and pedal cabin.
The smf conversions have sprung center hubs so still do something to reduce it. Just not as much as dmf.
It was 3kg lighter i think and should last life of car now so i was always willing to put up with a bit of extra gear rattle and cabin vibrations.
This judder was not that, it was shaking the whole car, real bad.

 

[Stilo man]

It is probs the clutch plate, which joins the part where diaphram is connected to part where the friction material touches, it's connected by little springs which absorb shock.

 

[sussexa]

I am hoping it is now, cause it went with a bang im hoping its just the center of the sprung plate sheared the 3 rivits holding it to the outer friction ring.or one side of the material has come off completely.
Hoping its not stripped splines on gearbox shaft or gearbox failure.

 

[sussexa]

Small update
Close on diagnosis
http://imageshack.us/a/img7/2460/dscf3841z.jpg
Not the rivits that went , all the connecting arms torn away, may be side effect of smf metal fatigue,
Or just too much torque, shock loading, trying to make it slip on purpose.
Smf no sign of wear , cover plate o.k no wear either, and disc has little wear.
Going back together with a delta integrale disc , not identical but garage seems confident on fit having tried it in there.