General Automatic or Manual?

[Man500]

So through watching some YouTube videos, I’ve learnt that both Manual and Automatics run into faults. There’s quite a few clutch faults that are common with manuals I believe?
And with the automatic, the gearbox is prone to fail?

Which would you go for?

 

[TrevC]

If you look on here, there is a duologic failure thread that is quite large. It's a notoriously unreliable automated manual system, rather than a true autobox.
I don't think the manual box, clutch etc. is any more prone to problems than any other small car. Others with more experience will no doubt chip in.

 

[John202020]

If its a 500 you're talking about then the only choice is a manual, clutch faults are really quite rare its the actuation of the clutch that "can" give issue but its an easy fix

 

[jrkitching]

It's all been said in the two replies you've already got. Only buy a dualogic if you've got a death wish.

The manuals are as reliable as any, apart from those with a DMF (later 85HP twinairs, and all 105HP & 4x4 twinairs). DMF's have been known to give trouble, sometimes after as little as 25000 miles, and won't be covered by any warranty as they're considered a wear and tear item.

 

[Ralf S.]

Manual. There are gearbox/clutch issues for sure.. but I'd suggest that's largely because 500 is a learner's / first car and so the transmission might get rather harsh treatment, and the components are quite small, after all. The FIRE engine design has been around for years and the drivechain is generally tough as old boots.. parts aren't too dear.. and lots of people know how to fix it.


Ralf S.

 

[mj2k]

Yeah, manual unless you've got a particular preference for an auto - more fun, besides everything else mentioned above

@jrkitching can the DMF be replaced with a standard flywheel on the affected models, like it can on many other marques? If so, that DMF replacement is a one-off cost...

 

[vexorg]

because 500 is a learner's / first car and so the transmission might get rather harsh treatment, and the components are quite small, after all.

I'm pretty sure new teaching method is to just drop the clutch when changing gear. I know when my kids were learning to drive, I couldn't even replicate the jerkiness that they would change gear (mentally couldn't bring myself to do it either too much empathy for the drivetrain). Though I was not popular with their driving instructor as I made my view very clear whenever I spoke to her.

When did they fix the "auto" problem, I remember there were many reports of them not even managing to pull away on a hill?

 

[jrkitching]

I remember there were many reports of them not even managing to pull away on a hill

That was an issue with the early Euro6 1.2's with manual transmission and the additional clutch position sensor.

can the DMF be replaced with a standard flywheel on the affected models

I have no idea, but the DMF is there for a reason and without it, the undamped power cycles from that turbocharged twin are going straight through the rest of the transmission. Not much point in saving the cost of a DMF if it results in your needing to replace the gearbox.

IIRC dualogic twinairs are detuned, presumably to prolong the life of the transmission.

If you want or need low cost motoring and your heart is set on a 500, buy a 1.2 manual.

 

[vexorg]

I know the 1.2 manual is impossible to drive with traction control on in the snow, it stalls the car before it moves if the wheels slip.

 

[mj2k]

That was an issue with the early Euro6 1.2's with manual transmission and the additional clutch position sensor.

I have no idea, but the DMF is there for a reason and without it, the undamped power cycles from that turbocharged twin are going straight through the rest of the transmission. Not much point in saving the cost of a DMF if it results in your needing to replace the gearbox.

IIRC dualogic twinairs are detuned, presumably to prolong the life of the transmission.

If you want or need low cost motoring and your heart is set on a 500, buy a 1.2 manual.

In certain cars it's necessary to remove transmission snatch at low rpm (modern diesels and old rotary engines in particular), which both feels very unpleasant and wears the drivetrain, though many of those cars are better suited to an autobox anyway. Maybe that does apply to the TA but it's a light car and I'd have thought the traction control would take care of transmission snatch, esp if the lower powered model doesn't have a DMF, unless the transmission really is constantly on the limits of self-destruction because of the amount of torque going through it (Alfa 156 GTA had this issue, but didn't have a DMF!).

In many other cars it's just there to remove NVH and make it feel a little more 'luxurious' though, and is effectively pointless (MB were the first to use it IIRC on their 5 cylinder diesels so they didn't feel quite so much like a truck) except it makes the car a little easier to sell, and pushes up servicing costs (which is nice from a manufacturer / dealer perspective).

On those cars, removing it is actually a really good idea since, NVH aside, it improves the quality of the gearchange (no slop as the clutch engages), increases reliability (DMFs last nowhere near as long as solid flywheels, by a matter of decades) and increases throttle responsiveness since DMFs are considerably heavier than solid flywheels, and add to rotational inertia.

 

[Man500]

If you look on here, there is a duologic failure thread that is quite large. It's a notoriously unreliable automated manual system, rather than a true autobox.
I don't think the manual box, clutch etc. is any more prone to problems than any other small car. Others with more experience will no doubt chip in.

Is the common fault with Dual Logic the oil seals going? How common is this? Is there any way to negate this from happening? I was more interested in buying the automatic, but if it’s such a huge problem then that will put me off.

With manuals, I’ve researched that common faults are -

1) Clutch Cylinders - the master and slave cylinders can leak, so you lose hydraulic pressure and the clutch won’t work.

2) Gear Selector can break - the rods pop off

3) Master cylinder is broken - plastic on it can be bent or hasn’t got a bracket

 

[puntodeltathema]

If one has a preference (or need) for an auto then my view is the Dualogic is viable and it is a better system to drive than the earlier versions of the Alfa/Fiat Selespeed (if not quite up with torque converter or twin clutch smoothness). They do have their issues, mostly hydraulic, but the actuator can be successfully refurbished by at least one specialist for about GBP 600-700 when you throw in labour for removal and refitting. If you go into it with the understanding the unit may need this once in your ownership and budget accordingly then it can be a rational option. Might even be best to get the unit refurbed at the outset, if one is worried about being stranded in awkward or possibly dangerous places (which I admit is an issue!!).

Clearly there is a lot of material on the forum about Dualogic but one needs to balance that against the trouble-free operation which isn't reported, and the fact Fiat have been selling the system in its current form for over 15 years.....

(Retires and takes refuge...!)

 

[TrevC]

As ever, it's very difficult to determine just how common "common" faults are. Subjectively, in the 10 years or so I've been a member of this forum, I have seen less reports of manual clutch issues than I have of broken door handles, hatch wiring etc. I have never had an auto, so haven't paid too much attention to the Dualogic faults, but lots seem to be reported considering most cars are manual. I would imagine faults with the Dualogic system need more specialist attention, special parts, and expense than replacing, say, a slave cylinder.
If it must be an auto then you have no choice but a manual gives a wider selection of cars to choose from and almost certainly less chance of expensive repairs in years to come.

 

[vexorg]

The thing about a manual clutch is that all the parts are well known and none of it is particularly difficult to fix.

 

[Goudrons]

Apart from all the above Dualogic problems, there's one big problem with them that will cause issues everyday (everyday it works that is).
They are horrid to drive!

All these automated manual gearboxes have one major flaw, they don't creep.

Torque convertor, CVT and dual clutch automatics will slowly move forward or backwards (creep) on idle when you release the brake.
This makes things like parking and reversing fairly easy, select drive/reverse, take your foot off the brake and control the speed by reapplying the brakes, you don't need to touch the accelerator as it'll creep by itself.

With a Dualogic and other automated manuals you have to accelerate to move the car, it will not creep in either drive or reverse without applying the accelerator.
At idle it just operates the clutch automatically so disengages power to the gearbox so no drive.

Now to get it to move you have to apply the accelerator pedal but you still need to cover the brake to control the car, so you really have to "two feet" it, one on the accelerator getting it to move and the other on or over the brake to stop it smashing into anything, which is pretty unnatural.

Another problem is on hill starts.
Moving your foot from the brake to the accelerator on a hill in a conventional automatic isn't a problem because of the creep.

In the Dualogic it's now a problem, as the car will roll back as it takes a second or so to cog the accelerator and automatically operate the clutch and engage drive.

To try and help you out here most come with some sort of hill hold.
That's ok when it's really steep and you know it'll hold the brake on but you never quite know if it'll stick on some other, less steep hills, which means you'll have to do the two footed dance again most of the time anyway.

Best leave these automated manuals alone, they are problematic and nasty to drive.

 

[mj2k]

The thing about a manual clutch is that all the parts are well known and none of it is particularly difficult to fix.

Definitely with you on that, and having seen the issues with Alfa sillyspeeds selespeeds (the current Dualogic's grandparent) the complexity and mixture of electronic, mechanical and electomechanical parts in a semi-auto box makes it much more issue prone.

Also interesting to see @Goudrons' comments about driveability, IMO the semi-auto boxes are much more suited to track use, where the paddle shifts are a real boon in preventing momentary loss of concentration or fudged shifts, whilst having no power-sapping torque converter or cvt drive bands. The Dualogic's great grandparent in the Alfa 155 DTM was pretty spectacular, just listen to those shifts!

 

[mj2k]

Fresh update to a Dualogic issue in the latest forum posts, this sort of issue would frighten the life out of me even if it the box is more reliable than everyone thinks:

Dualogic issue after gearbox change | FIAT 500 (2007+)

Hi, I've spent hours online mainly on the fiatforum trying to find anyone who's had a similar issue to me but I can't so if someone can help please. My 1.4 16v dualogic 500 needed a new gearbox due to a diff issue and rather than start messing with diffs a low milage replacement gearbox was...

www.fiatforum.com

Sounds like a game of 'guess if the issue is compatibility, software, electrical, or mechanical', before even trying to work out what's wrong Glad I've got a clutch and wobble stick in mine.

 

[Goudrons]

All clutches wear out.
Even the clutch in a Dualogic will wear.

It is basically the standard dry manual clutch and almost standard gearbox but instead of being operated by a simple manually operated master cylinder with slave, your foot and a few cables, rods to the gear lever and your hand, it's all operated for you by hydraulics, servos, valves, sensors and powered by a pump with an electronic brain.

They both suffer similar sort of problems, worn out clutch, leaking hydraulics, perhaps even a worn input shaft bearing on an older car.
The difference is getting these repaired.

The manual is easy, nearly any garage can swap a clutch or master or slave cylinder or even fit a recon gearbox.

The Dualogic is a bit different, you'll need someone who knows how and they are few and far between plus the parts are expensive.
A manual master or slave cylinder is peanuts compared to the complicated hydraulic that operate the Dualogic.

 

[mj2k]

All clutches wear out.
Even the clutch in a Dualogic will wear.

It is basically the standard dry manual clutch and almost standard gearbox but instead of being operated by a simple manually operated master cylinder with slave, your foot and a few cables, rods to the gear lever and your hand, it's all operated for you by hydraulics, servos, valves, sensors and powered by a pump with an electronic brain.

They both suffer similar sort of problems, worn out clutch, leaking hydraulics, perhaps even a worn input shaft bearing on an older car.
The difference is getting these repaired.

The manual is easy, nearly any garage can swap a clutch or master or slave cylinder or even fit a recon gearbox.

The Dualogic is a bit different, you'll need someone who knows how and they are few and far between plus the parts are expensive.
A manual master or slave cylinder is peanuts compared to the complicated hydraulic that operate the Dualogic.

Indeed, but even swapping a semi-auto's clutch will no doubt be cheaper than swapping a worn autobox torque converter / pump. Though there's even more complexity potentially - in the above case it sounds like swapping the Dualogic box but not it's controller has caused a previously good clutch to incompletely engage (besides other shifting issues), which is wearing and overheating the clutch. I haven't got a clue how you'd go about diagnosing that, so I've got nothing to offer in the thread itself

It'll take a very tenacious owner indeed to carry on trying to diagnose what's not working after replacing the box, and I suspect most would either end up getting a brand new box / 'robot', convert it to a manual, or even sell it on cheap with a 'minor gearshift fault' out of frustration in the end...

 

[vexorg]

Indeed, but even swapping a semi-auto's clutch will no doubt be cheaper than swapping a worn autobox torque converter / pump.

Genuine autoboxes (with torque converter) very rarely fail.