Technical Air Conditioning problem

[ninbelindur]

Hopefully someone can help me ?

We have got a Fiat Croma 2.2 petrol and the air conditioning doesn`t blow cold.
In the winter it doesnt matter as the heater works and gets more than hot enough, so all the fans work perfectly well, it`s just the temperature in the summer.
Not last year, but the year before, I went to kwik fit and had the gas filled up, it worked perfectly with the air ice cold for a couple of days, and then gradually got warmer and then just came out as if the air conditioning wasn`t working. To be fair to Kwik fit, they refilled the gas for me as it was empty and the same thing happened. It obviously wasn`t their fault so I didn`t bither to go back.
I would like to drive the car to the south of France this summer, and of course air conditioning is essential so I would like to fix the problem. Any ideas what the root cause is ?

 

[Davren]

You've got a leak in the system somewhere. They can put a dye in it to see where the leak is coming from, in fact, as it had all leaked out within a few days of KwikFit refilling it, they should have put the dye in the second time they refilled it as it had leaked out again..
.

 

[ninbelindur]

Thanks. Can I do this work easily myself or do I get someone to pump die through it to identify the source and then buy the specific seals etc ?

 

[BrianMcL]

Thanks. Can I do this work easily myself or do I get someone to pump die through it to identify the source and then buy the specific seals etc ?

In theory you could. You would need a black light to see it though. Maplins sell them.

As the mod says you should go back to Kwik Fit and get them to check it properly. Any aircon service company should be able to check it for you if they won't.

On my 8v multijet it's very easy to refill - Halfords sell a kit that I've used on other cars that works quite well. However if your system has a leak, which it almost certainly does, you'd be wasting your money until you get the leak repaired.

 

[bobbyblue]

Thanks. Can I do this work easily myself or do I get someone to pump die through it to identify the source and then buy the specific seals etc ?

Be very careful with A/C refrigerant, it has a very low boiling point and will kill flesh tissue if you get it on it, if it went in your eyes it would blind you, this sort of thing is best left to the experts who have the correct equipment and training. I have a problem with my aircon as well, I suspect the condenser (the A/C radiator) has been damaged by a stone hitting it and causing it to leak but have not had it tested yet.

 

[BrianMcL]

Good point BobbyBlue. I was refilling a Mazda Bongo when some escaped and burned the inside of my left arm a bit. I was pretty glad I was wearing thick gloves and jumper or it could have been worse.

 

[halilson]

I looked into DIY kits for my previous car, but the cheapest at the time were around £35 and kwik fit were doing it for £45 or £50, with no charge if a leak was found. No brainer really, especially when you consider the possibility of the above problems occurring. As it turned out, my condenser was leaking so it didn't cost me a penny.

 

[Doofer]

Mine had a new condenser about a year ago. I got a mobile air con bloke to refill it with dye in, then the stains appeared. I had a look through the front grille with his magic specs and it was soaking through it. I then bought a new one, took the bumper off and he came back and fitted it and refilled again. It's been great ever since.

The condenser is the radiator-like thing you see looking through the centre of the front grille. The radiator is actually behind it, protected by it. It has very fine fins that decay and/or get hit by pebbles. On my old one, you could rub the fins off with your finger.

The whole of the front bumper needs to come off. It's not a huge task, except for the fact that the screws (horrible self-tappers) will have turned into a ball of rust if they're anything like mine. A garage would probably shove them back in or new self-tappers, but I got some stainless M6 hex-head bolts and M6 tapped inserts (they do have a name that I've forgotten - edit : spire clips). I painted the ones on the front edge of the wheelarches with colour-matched touch-up paint as they were a bit too shiny and bling for my liking. I re-used the same bolts under the front edge of the bonnet but gave them a good pickling overnight in oil, followed by a dunk in grease.

I bought my new one on ebay. If you want to know which one let me know and I'll look it up. It was not listed as being for a Croma. It was a good price, and I think it was German - the bloke who fitted it said it was a good brand.

Anyway, it's not forced to be your condenser, but you could save the cost of a refill with dye by just prodding at it with your fingers through the grille (if it's possible, it's a long way behind it though). If it's gone flakey and dusty then it needs replacing anyway, and is very likely to be the cause of the leak. You could then replace it and have it refilled with dyed gas - if it stays in then it's fixed, if not then the leak is elsewhere, but the condenser needed replacing anyway.

Edit: Ebay item number 280913876458 is the right one for the petrol engine, from the same seller I got mine from. Mine was actually fitted August 2011, and it's been fine ever since.

 

[bobbyblue]

Hi Doofer, was yours the same price as the petrol one - £61? By the way, the top screws that hold my front bumper on are so rusty they will have to be drilled out.

 

[Doofer]

I think this is the diesel one (check though)...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-...Parts_SM&fits=Model:Croma&hash=item43b233eec8

Mine was about £80-ish, so the price has tumbled. Hopefully it's still decent - there's a 2 year warranty (for replacement only, not the re-gas cost).

Bobbyblue - do you mean the torx ones around the bonnet catch? Mine are rust-coloured but intact. The self-tappers around the front edge of the wheelarch liner and under the bottom edge of the bumper were like relics from a shipwreck though. I had to use a combination of mole grips and other horrible means to get them off. Stainless hex bolts are much better.

 

[bobbyblue]

Yes, the Torx head screws, I tried to undo them after a good soak with penetrating oil but a couple of them were turning the captive nuts in their holders, they will have to be drilled out

 

[bobbyblue]

Doofer, I went on the Ebay link for the diesel condenser, that's incredibly cheap, I may well follow this up but I may be swapping the Croma for something else shortly, it depends on the PX they offer me

 

[Justhb]

Hi - does anybody know the size of the rubber sealing gaskets for the connections to the condenser? I changed the condenser and must have left the old ones in the unit and now the system doesn't seal. Fiat can't establish which gasket to specify out of the 4 options and therefore would charge for all of them -£25! Any help appreciated.

 

[ninbelindur]

Hi guys, thanks for all the responses.
I have now had the time to inspect what I think is the condenser, and the fins just crumble away to the touch, so I suspect that whatever else has happened, I am going to have to replace this.
I have taken images but cannot upload them.
What I have identified as the condenser is the first radiator behind the bumper, dimensions(roughly):
660*415
Do you reckon that exchanging this will if not solve, at least help the problem ?

 

[Doofer]

That is the condenser. The radiator is hiding behind it. You'll see what it should look like on the links I gave above.

As I said above, if it's crumbly then it definitely needs replacing and there's a 99% chance that it is leaking, and a 90% chance that it's the only leak.

So replace it! Bumper off, replace, re-gas (including dye), bumper back on.

If it works for a couple of weeks after then it's fixed. If not then the dye would tell your air con man where the other leak is.

 

[ninbelindur]

Thanks Doofer, I`m going to order one off that guy then for sure.

It might take me a few weeks but I will report back what has happened.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

:bang:

Just because the fins are crumbling on the condenser, does not mean this is the cause of your leak.

When you took your car back to kwik fit the second time after just a few days they were technically (and legally) negligent in regasing the system knowing there was a leak, they should have performed a proper vacuum and hold to test for an leaks and only then if it passed they should regas but knowing there was a problem they should have added dye at that stage.

Also depending on the system they used they should have added a specific amount of refrigerant oil and dye to the system anyway (this is the standard procedure)

That said crumbly fins do not mean the condenser is the source of the leak, they are a bare metal all aluminium construction and exposed to all elements, the fins quite often crumble after a few years.

Most likely sources of leaks are usually joints between pipes as the O-rings dry out from the compressor shaft as it gets old and worn and from unions between metal and rubber or different metals that make up the pipes.

Basically as the system has been empty and unused for so long you could have multiple leaks all over the system from perished o-rings.

What you really need is an independent air conditioning specialist to take a look rather than letting kwik fit loose on it again they can fault find fix and regas the system without having to worry about a half arse job being done and throwing your money down the drain

 

[Doofer]

All very sensible advice above, but I would have to differ in one respect - in my view crumbly fins = replace. It's very likely to be leaking, or about to start and it will not be doing its job without the fins - they're there to dissipate heat.

From my own personal experience, the condenser was my one and only culprit. If it's dead then replace it.

Mine passed the vacuum test. It only leaked when pressurised. I did have to pay for two fills - one with dye to find the leak, then again when it was fixed.

 

[ninbelindur]

Ok, have received the replacement condenser and it looks very nice. I don`t think replacing it will be a huge job (hoping more like).
I`m a little concerned by AndyRKetts posting, and it is a nagging doubt that I`ve had at the back of my mind that it would be too simple to just replace the condenser, but have been reassured again by doofers post. I am also of the opinion that it needs to be changed anyway and is very likely the main if not only culprit.
I am going to do the work tomorrow and will have the gas recharged in the week more likely than not. I will let you know how the replacement goes.
In the instance that it does not fix the problem entirely, does anyone know where to get a replacement set of seals from, and is it a big job to replace the lot ?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

lets hope it is simply the condenser, as for 'set of seals' there is no such think you would have to buy them individually and replace them one by one most aircon engineers carry a huge set of generic O-rings which they will use once they have found a leak, picking out the size needed at the time. some aircon fittings require special tools to separate joints others are more simple.

so you replace the condenser then replace all the seals at huge cost and you could still find the leak is a cracked pipe or worst still the compressor shaft, before you do anything get your hands on the compressor and make sure it hasn't seized which is common in systems that haven't been used for long periods of time.

I'm very much an advocate of doing things yourself but you really need to know what you're doing with aircon, high pressures (200psi) temperatures both hot and cold which can leave you with very nasty burns, and gasses which are heavier than air and can pool on the ground leading to asphyxiation, this is why you should always let the professionals deal with these systems, they can be pretty dangerous require many special tools and equipment to service and ultimately you can't do it all yourself.
trying to do so, as you seem to be can result in throwing good money after bad.