General A question just about shims, not fitting order etc lol

[cmgunn3r]

Hi all,

After Ive sorted most of the enigne out now, I wanted to tackle this tapping noise coming from the top of the engine, Its there at tickover but goes when im drving the car or when rev'ing it

So I've been told and think myself that a shim or shims are worn?

My idea as my local garage has said £200? to do it. me and my dad will do it, (he's had previous experience with an escort and fiesta)

So what I wanted to do as the haynes says the correct gap should be 0.05mm. Is go to the scrap yard with a feeler gauge and see if I can find any good shims up there to transplant to mine?

There are alot of mark 1 models up there, But do I have to stick to the same model as mine (55s) or can I take them off other models i.e 60/75 and 85 etc?

Really appreciate any feedback here, You guys are always spot on! :worship:

Thanks
Dave

 

[Moosey]

What engine does your car have?

 

[cmgunn3r]

8v 1108 cc mate and its a p-reg 1997.

 

[Moosey]

Might be worth pulling the cam box/cam cover and using a feeler gauge to check the valve clearance, then getting the required shims from Fiat. I think they're about £3 each.

I'm not sure if a scrapyard will let you take them out of a used engine (Unless it's damaged.) as without them the engine is effectively useless and unsellable.

 

[cmgunn3r]

Hi Moosey,

Thanks for the reply, Is that all £3 each? :bang: I thought they were really expensive, even so from main dealers lol Might just do that then.

Scrap yard wise, The cars are put in the yard literally hundreds lol and there left for people to descend on them like vultures and meat lol

You can have what ever you need. Draw back is you have to get the part(s) you need off yourself lol

Thanks for that. I orded a feeler gauge so will get on it as soon as it comes. As far as I know I need a cam oil seal and the rocker cover gasket aswell. As I havnt got the tool too just pop the shims out I'm thinking timing belt wise it's been on less than 12months so I could use that one again?

Thanks
Dave

 

[Moosey]

I think they're about that. They're not expensive things.

Pick 'n' pull scrap yards are great, if that's the case then you can probably take whatever you want. Problem is, you might not find the shims you need. I've turned up at a yard before, having been told they an engine in that i needed a power steering pump from, only to find someone had already had it!

I have a set of cam oil seals for a 16v, if it's the same seal you need you're more than welcome to have it.

 

[Davren]

So what I wanted to do as the haynes says the correct gap should be 0.05mm. Is go to the scrap yard with a feeler gauge and see if I can find any good shims up there to transplant to mine?

Going to the scrap yard with the feeler gauge won't help you.

You need to measure the clearances on your engine with a feeler gauge, then measure the thickness of each of your current shims with a micrometer.

From that information you can calculate the thickness of each new shim required to give you the correct clearances. You may find that you can swap some existing shims to different valves.

Then you can buy the correct shims for each valve. If you're getting them from a scrap yard, you'd need to take the micrometer with you, not the feeler gauge.

 

[cmgunn3r]

Thanks Mossey.

Yea its ace up there proper gold mine some's cars up there are nearly in drivable condition makes me wonder why some of them are there lol

I got my wording wrong sorry it was a Camshaft oil seal that I should have put

Davren: Thanks for the reply, The problem is I don't own a micrometer Is there any other way of doing it?. I thought that on the back of the shim there is the shim thickness number, What my plan was to use the feeler gauge to see how much there out and add that to the number on the back of the shim only minus 0.05mm clearence it needs?

Unless my dad has any better idea. I won't know untill tomorrow when I see him.

Dave

 

[Moosey]

If the thickness number is face down on the tappet, it should be fine to read. If it's been put in facing the cam lobe (If it can be) the numbering may well be worn off. But since you'll need to check the shims before you go get new ones, you'll be able to see if the numbering is visible.

Is the camshaft oil seal you need the one for the front end (Pulley end.) of the cam, where it goes into the cylinder head/cam box? If it's the same size as the one i have (From a 1.2 16v) and will work, i'll happily send it to you in the post, as i have no use for it.

 

[D4nny8oy]

So what I wanted to do as the haynes says the correct gap should be 0.05mm.

I'd read that again if I were you.

0.05mm is the tolerance +/- from the correct gap.

 

[cmgunn3r]

D4nny8oy: Doh so I assume the 0.40 is the gap its needs? from shim to lobe? Sorry sound dum, Its somthing I've not done before, So a learning curve for me lol

Moosey: Fingers crossed it is that way, Well assuming the number is on the back, Came I just get another shim with the same number on the back? Also from what I see in the manual yes Its the one next to the camshaft pulley. If you did'nt mind that would be great

Starting to think this could be why the garage said £200, It sounds complicated. But I need it doing

Thanks
Dave

 

[Moosey]

As the valve wears with the seat, the clearance will change. So unfortunately, no you can't always just swap for it for a new one of the same thickness.

It's not a hard job, just can be a little time consuming. I used to do old VWs pretty quickly at a friend's shop. But he had the special tools for those and we were using all new shims. I wouldn't charge £200 for it though!

I'll get pics and will measure the seal for you tomorrow.

 

[Davren]

Davren: Thanks for the reply, The problem is I don't own a micrometer Is there any other way of doing it?. I thought that on the back of the shim there is the shim thickness number,

The thickness is printed on the shims but yours, and scrap yard, shims are likely to be worn so will no longer be the size printed.

You cant do the job accurately without a micrometer unless you do it by trial and error. If you chose that option, there are about 45 different thickness shims so you would need a lot of them to try.

 

[cmgunn3r]

oohhh rite, so to be honest without a micrometer Im stuffed lol

When I get the rocker off and take a look what is the best thing I can do then?
Does this work, Point lobe up as it says, try the feeler gauge untill i get a snug fit? and somehow get hold of a micrometer. then measure the thickness of the shim plus the reading of the feeler gauge? And what ever it totals try get a shim of that thickness?

Sorry for so many question's Just trying understand how do it. As my plan has backfired lol

Thanks for that mossey, Really apperciate it. why do you have to live in london:bang:. would prefer pay you do it lol.

Cheers Dave.

 

[cmgunn3r]

You cant do the job accurately without a micrometer unless you do it by trial and error. If you chose that option, there are about 45 different thickness shims so you would need a lot of them to try.

Thanks I'll have to try and get hold of one, somehow.

Don't fancy trial and error route. I've done that before and it nearly cost me my ecu

Cheers
Dave

 

[Davren]

Does this work, Point lobe up as it says, try the feeler gauge untill i get a snug fit? and somehow get hold of a micrometer. then measure the thickness of the shim plus the reading of the feeler gauge? And what ever it totals try get a shim of that thickness?

Not quite.... if you did that you would end up with no clearance atall.

Measure the clearance with the feeler gauge, then remove and measure the shim with a micrometer.

If the clearance is say 0.2mm too big, then you need a shim that is 0.2mm thicker that the thickness of the original one.

If the clearance is say 0.2mm too small, then you need a shim that is 0.2mm thinner that the thickness of the original one.

It's much easier doing it than explaining it.

I don't know what the clearances are supposed to be for your car, but usually exhaust valve clearances are slightly bigger than inlets.

 

[cmgunn3r]

If the clearance is say 0.2mm too big, then you need a shim that is 0.2mm thicker that the thickness of the original one.

My brain see's that as. If the gap is 0.2mm too much?

If the clearance is say 0.2mm too small, then you need a shim that is 0.2mm thinner that the thickness of the original one.

And this too me means. If the gap is 0.2mm too less?

Sorry it's confusing 2 me

Dave

 

[Moosey]

Rotate the cam (Turn via the crank, should be a 15mm bolt.) so that the lobe points up and measure the gap with a feeler gauge. You want the fit to be snug but not tight, it shouldn't need "force" to get it in.

Get a piece of paper, check each shim one by one and write down the original clearance reading. The remove each shim one by one and either measure or check the thickness. (Using a flatblade screwdrive, you should be able to gently lever the tappet down by its edge levering against the cam. Be careful! A small prybar with an angled tip works great for this, but a flatblade should work fine too. You should be able to pull the shim with a magnet or gently pull it out with pliers.

For example, if you need a 0.4mm gap, and your feeler gauge shows a 0.6mm gap. If the shim in place is 1mm, then you need a 1.2mm shim to acheive the correct clearance. Those numbers are inflated for the sake of the example, but that's the basic principal of it.

Having a piece of paper with all the original measurements, and doing one shim at a time will make it much easier to do and keep track of everything.

Hope that helps explain it a little.

-Moosey.

 

[Davren]

I'll wait to see if you understood Moosey's explaination better before confusing you more.

 

[Moosey]

Thanks for that mossey, Really apperciate it. why do you have to live in london:bang:. would prefer pay you do it lol.

Because i'm a crazy southerner!