Technical 500 twinair water coolant bleeding help

[zunkus]

I own a 2014 500 Twinair which I've bought new. I had issues with a cracked reservoir which was solved with a new (from ebay) expansion tank. I have had air trapped in the water system ever since though. I couldn't find any air vent plugs on this car to help me do this so resorted to fitting a water bottle on top of the reservoir so as to overfill it, start the engine with the heater on, and rev it after it got to running temperature. This seemed to solve the issue for a while but now that the outside air has gotten hotter and am using the aircon more the issue has resurfaced. I hear a gurgling and splashing sound from the passenger side (It's right-hand drive). Any help on this please?

 

[Baglady1990]

I own a 2014 500 Twinair which I've bought new. I had issues with a cracked reservoir which was solved with a new (from ebay) expansion tank. I have had air trapped in the water system ever since though. I couldn't find any air vent plugs on this car to help me do this so resorted to fitting a water bottle on top of the reservoir so as to overfill it, start the engine with the heater on, and rev it after it got to running temperature. This seemed to solve the issue for a while but now that the outside air has gotten hotter and am using the aircon more the issue has resurfaced. I hear a gurgling and splashing sound from the passenger side (It's right-hand drive). Any help on this please?

Firstly be very careful! It’s very easy for overheating if the coolant isn’t circulating properly
Check for any leaks. Pay particular attention to the rubber hoses from the radiator & thermostat
When was the cam belt & water pump last changed if at all?
Is there no bleed point on the twin air?? On the 1.2 it’s towards the back near the brake fluid reservoir/ behind the battery

Air is still in the system & needs purging as soon as possible or your engine could overheat

 

[John202020]

I had an issue with our Mazda with air in the system a trip to a multi story car park sorted it-steep ramps.
Splashing sounds doesn't sound like a cooling issue more water in some other part of the car? is the ac draining correctly?

 

[varesecrazy]

I replied to their other thread..

Twinair :
No bleed screws ( unlike FIRE motors)
No cambelt

Not sure about the waterpumps..
My 2012 has covered 65k without issue

 

[Baglady1990]

I had an issue with our Mazda with air in the system a trip to a multi story car park sorted it-steep ramps.
Splashing sounds doesn't sound like a cooling issue more water in some other part of the car? is the ac draining correctly?

I had sloshing noise behind dash when I first got my car and as I had no idea! We all know how that turned out
I also had the same noise last year when I hadn’t purged enough air out after a thermostat change
So it can definitely point to air in cooling system

If air can get in …. I would expect water to get out… no visible leaks anywhere under car or footwell then I’d be a little concerned…

 

[Baglady1990]

I replied to their other thread..

Twinair :
No bleed screws ( unlike FIRE motors)
No cambelt

Not sure about the waterpumps..
My 2012 has covered 65k without issue

No cam belt!!? Wow!!! Surly a water pump?

 

[varesecrazy]

Air is trapped from where you partially drained the system

 

[zunkus]

So, to give some feedback on this. I gave up on finding better ways to bleed the system. I also ended up with an amber engine light and the warning triangle lighting up on the dash. Took the car to the dealer. They said the engine light wasn't caused by the water system but by a damaged turbo down pipe which they replaced. They also found the waste gate jammed which they suspect with what caused the damage in the downpipe from excessive pressure buildup. I'm not too savvy with turbos so had to take their word for it. As to water problem they said that it was a faulty reservoir cap which doubles up as a water pressure valve. I'm not too sure about that. Driving back home I still heard the sloshing noises. Furthermore when opening the bonnet saw the reservoir bottle almost ready to overflow, the water well above the upper limit line. When the car cooled down the water level sat in between minimum and full. I'm guessing the water problem is still there. I did notice a different to when I'm not using the AC (in cold of course with the current temperatures). The water problem is not so evident when the AC is not used. Oh, the bill came to 410 euros for changing the rubber downpipe, reservoir cap and one running light.

 

[zunkus]

Air is trapped from where you partially drained the system

That's wise. Now how am I to bleed it? That is the question.

 

[zunkus]

I had sloshing noise behind dash when I first got my car and as I had no idea! We all know how that turned out
I also had the same noise last year when I hadn’t purged enough air out after a thermostat change
So it can definitely point to air in cooling system

If air can get in …. I would expect water to get out… no visible leaks anywhere under car or footwell then I’d be a little concerned…

I did find water under the return hose to the reservoir bottle. They replaced the thermostat cap as well but I'm still hearing the noises. I'm slowly thinking of giving up on this car and start searching for another (no turbos next time), which is a shame as apart from this problem there's very little to hate about it. Love it.

 

[vexorg]

The old way of bleeding was to squeeze the pipes as the engine is heating up.

The 1.2 has a bleed point at the top of the radiator, does twin air have a different rad?

 

[John202020]

With the expansion bottle filled to max when cold it's normal to go above when hot, it will return to max when cold but it shouldn't be absolutely full when hot, with no radiator cap then the expansion bottle cap will be the pressure release. Any trapped air will expand "a lot" pushing up the liquid level.
Try parking the car on the steepest slope you can find or drive up the ramps in a multi story car park anything to shift trapped air? Worked on our Mazda. Or drain the system and very slowly re fill it?
Does the sound vary with the engine speed? Can you hear it when stationary Or say going round a corner you've checked the scuttle drains under the wipers so there's no trapped water there ,under the black trim where the wipers stick through

 

[zunkus]

The old way of bleeding was to squeeze the pipes as the engine is heating up.

The 1.2 has a bleed point at the top of the radiator, does twin air have a different rad?

Not that I know of. What I do know is that the twinair radiator is sealed. It has no cap, nothing. Just an inlet and outlet pipe.

 

[zunkus]

With the expansion bottle filled to max when cold it's normal to go above when hot, it will return to max when cold but it shouldn't be absolutely full when hot, with no radiator cap then the expansion bottle cap will be the pressure release. Any trapped air will expand "a lot" pushing up the liquid level.
Try parking the car on the steepest slope you can find or drive up the ramps in a multi story car park anything to shift trapped air? Worked on our Mazda. Or drain the system and very slowly re fill it?
Does the sound vary with the engine speed? Can you hear it when stationary Or say going round a corner you've checked the scuttle drains under the wipers so there's no trapped water there ,under the black trim where the wipers stick through

No leakages anywhere except when the water boils and leaks from the return hose to the water reservoir bottle.
Yes, the sploshing sound is heard only when the engine is revved hard and abruptly, also there is more chance of the sploshing when the aircondition or heater is on max.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I own a 2014 500 Twinair which I've bought new. I had issues with a cracked reservoir which was solved with a new (from ebay) expansion tank. I have had air trapped in the water system ever since though. I couldn't find any air vent plugs on this car to help me do this so resorted to fitting a water bottle on top of the reservoir so as to overfill it, start the engine with the heater on, and rev it after it got to running temperature. This seemed to solve the issue for a while but now that the outside air has gotten hotter and am using the aircon more the issue has resurfaced. I hear a gurgling and splashing sound from the passenger side (It's right-hand drive). Any help on this please?

Having read all the responses its disappointing there are no replies with an answer. I have just been and looked at my Panda twinair. There is a high mounted reservoir with several pipes attached and Im assuming its similar to the 500 TA. From what I can see you are right there are no bleed points so this should be a self bleeding system. There are two small bore pipes that will we returns from the radiator top somewhere and probably the water pump that should allow the air to vent into the header reservoir. A dealer would probably pressurise the header with compressed air kit which would push the water level and force any trapped air out of the ses small pipes. As the header reservoir is higher than the radiator there should not be a bleeding issue. My crude way of pressurising the water system on ourPandas is to take the cap off and blow as har as I can into the header, and it does work if you can maintain decent pressure for 20 or 30 seconds, BUT ANTI FREEZE IS POISNOUS so its not without risk. Also try doing the hoze squeeze if you are able to get to a top or bottom hose. With the engine running at fast idle and the reservoir cap removed squeeze the hose had and violently to push water back to the reservoir bottle. You may need to do this with some vigour for a few minutes. Also try removing the filler cap and running the engine at around 3000 rpm for 3 or four minutes at a constant speed which may also eventually allow the air out.

Always check the level after any fiddling and top up if required.

Self bleeding systems do work. I fitted a new radiator to our Seat and all that was required was to fill it up. Sloshing sounds are also possible from watter trapped in the scuttle under the wipers. Its a big Panda issue but affects any car if the drain holes are blocked.

Final thought. Run the car up to temperature and check that no hoses are showing signs of inflation as this could be a head gasket issue.

 

[The Panda Nut]

No cam belt!!? Wow!!! Surly a water pump?

Thats what the twinair is about. Valves operated electro-hydraulically (multi / twinair unit) and I think, controlled by the ECU. Hence all the fuss about running the TA on EXACTLY the correct grade of oil. Valve timing can be fiddled by the ECU with allowing this 874cc engine to produce prodigious torque at low revs and 90HP at high revs. There is a water pump just not driven by the cam belt as there isnt one. Its one peculiar thing, but when its running right its impressive. I live in fear of it going wrong, but hey all cars do in the end. I have 2 years warranty left on the main components and have only still done 13800 miles in 3.25 years so I am trusting it should be OK for a bit longer. The TA is more than a match for a 1.2 in ECO mode and considerably quicker with ECO switched off when much more power is released. If it does 8 years and needs a multi air unit it will balance out v's cost of cam belts. I hate cam belts big time so I like the TA even though its very odd.

 

[John202020]

Ignore the ac it only increases the air temperature to the rad and has no other effect.
The heater setting makes no difference whatsoever to the circulation through the heater matrix just for information.
My old Accords went through a number of radiators , the filling and purging required you to run up to rad fan coming on with the rad/expansion cap off perhaps try this?

 

[vexorg]

Vauxhall is the same, run it up to temp with cap off, let it cool then top up

 

[Baglady1990]

I had a pool of coolant this morning after I got to my destination….. the coolant bleed point on a year old rad had broken off for whatever reason! The top bleed screw just down from the filler cap … it was missing but the thread part was still in the hole but allowing pressure to expel coolant

Why o why are these pieces just plastic!!? I had to wait for it to cool and use superglue to plug the leak .. had no option really as I was stuck and without anything else! New rad AGAIN then! I wouldn’t mind but I never go for the cheapest option on parts and this one wasn’t cheap!

 

[John202020]

So I would have said drill out then stick a screwdriver in and unscrew it but that option is probably no longer available but might still work as the screw is probably polythene so won't glue?