General 45i.e -89 stops when warm

[Ronnie]

Hello!
My 999cc Fire engine starts from cold (not immediate, but after a few tries) and is running ok. But when the engine reach working temperature (just before the fan starts) it stops. Then it is very hard or impossible to start it again. I don´t think there is anything wrong with the cooling system, the car is not boiling, just at normal operating temperature when it stops.

When the air filter is removed the car works better, I don´t know if this has anything to do with the warm problem. (The car has sadly running without air filter for a long time as some former owner have removed it[!], maybe to solve another problem)

Any clues what´s wrong and how I fix it?

 

[John H]

Have you got an electronic distributor ?

They are notorious for failing when hot.

See this thread:

https://www.fiatforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1746

 

[Ronnie]

hmmm... strange. The car never works when reach operating temperature. I will check coolant temperature switch first. Why should the distrubutor work when cold but not when hot?

 

[John H]

I haven't bothered to dismantle the component parts of the distributor, but I understand the problem is the pickup coil*, and/or its wiring, which goes high resistance when hot.

If yours has got to the stage where it will fail everytime it gets hot, just let it warm up where you park it, and put an old spark plug and put it on the end of a plug lead when it stops, and see if you get a spark when trying to restart.

If there's a spark and it won't go it's not the distrubtor. Q.E.D.

Regards


John H


* when I took mine to bits I thought it was a Hall effect device - but it only has two leads: HES needs three :I

 

[lashlondon]

As John can tell you, this does sound familiar- you will find that if u open the bonnet and cool the motor it will restart quicker..

..new distributer is £120 or second hand...well I payed £60.

Car works fine now.

Dave

 

[Ronnie]

Hello again!

I have not worked yet on the car, too lazy. But when I fixed it I will tell you what was wrong.

I accidentally removed the wire to the coolant temperature sensor, (left to the oil check stick), but my car behaves just like it does when the wire was plugged in. Do you know how the sensor works? When the car is cold is the resistance very big, and then getting smaller the hotter the engine is? In that case it’s logic that the car behave the same without the wire.

 

[John H]

Is it carburettor, or injection and ECU?? I presume your I.E. is injected...

But, with carb you'd just loose the temperature guage..

With ECU, it'll just substitute a warm engine value for an unexpected (disconnected) sensor voltage: "limited operating strategy", or limp home mode.

AIUI It will operate much the same as normal when warmed up. Some sophisticated systems back off maximum power when things are out of limits: don't know if it applies here - ISTR Pete gets less power for his standing 1/4 runs when too hot, and has manual switch on the fan [:0]

If it's truly faulty it may well be difficult to start when cold - but, my understanding is that ATS has biggest effect on cold start settings: throttle opened a bit for quicker tick-over, and richer mixture too.

You may get other information from the others here


Regards


John H

 

[HP]

John - spot on about the power, you can feel the difference!

Ronnie - The wire you have disconnected should only be for the gauge or warning light (assuming it's the same setup as the cinq) and there will be another temp sensor on the inlet manifold for the ecu's water temp sensor.

Pete.
Cinq sporting 1242cc
Cinqs&Seis Yahoo group
Clubcento

 

[Ronnie]

Hello again!

I put my car into a garage, and now they say they found the problem. A little hard to understand what they mean but they said it was something with the ignition, distributor and the wiring inside(damn I should have changed it my self!). In swedish they called it the "tänd ignitionen", maybe Morten from Norway understands this, if I translate it directly it is the "ignition ignition", yeah that make sense, NOT!

But I know they changed the ignition module (100 euros), without asking me, (make it start easier, but doen't solve the problem I want to have fixed!) so I think they will put it in the price by using difficult words and explaining it as hard as they can.

Then beacause the car got a high CO-value they want to change oil, filter, sparks. (I just changed oil, but beacause of the car not working properly they think it is gasoline in the oil, so that could effect the CO-value).

And I have a problem with my handbrake, a spring is f**ked up so the break keeps braking after release the handbrake. And the break is very weak, so they adjust that too. They will just clean the spring.

The price for all this is about 600 euros*. Is it worth it? If I don´t want them to do it I have to pay 110 euros for the fault finding. (And fight about not paying for the ignition module). But if I let them fixed it I have a car that will pass the MOT.


(I bought the car for 500 euros, but it doesn't have much rust, and is in pretty good condition)

*maximum 690 euros with 15% unknown cost from their side, pretty sure they will claim it

 

[lashlondon]

ei hyvaa! (hows my Finnish..)

My handbrake is useless too, I've replaced the cable but I suspect (from other posts here in the last 6 months) that the cable connector (that splits the handbrake) can also do with a relube and another gent reckons each MOT he renews the rear brake shoes (if ur on drums..)

Renewing the rear shoes didn't look easy (Haynes book made it look a sinch but the whole mech is spring loaded, so once its off I don't think I'll be able to get it on again..) so I got through on a blessing but this time I'll take it in to get a shop to do it...B)

later
Dave

 

[John H]

Originally posted by Ronnie
Hello again!

Then beacause the car got a high CO-value they want to change oil, filter, sparks. (I just changed oil, but beacause of the car not working properly they think it is gasoline in the oil, so that could effect the CO-value).

I don't think they're far off in what they want to change:
My usual method for getting good emission figures involves all of the following:

check you have you have good spark plugs and leads.
new oil and filter.
new air filter.
a good dose of fuel injector cleaner a few days before the test.
a 30 minute drive with medium to high engine speeds immediately before the test.
get them to test it while stinking hot from the drive to the garage.

If you think the filters and plugs are Ok, just do the injector cleaner and fast drive - but take it to a different tester
and pre-book your test so you can get it done while hot from the drive.


Sorry you got stung for the ignition module


It's probably best that somebody who knows the UNO brakes writes about it.., but Petes FAQ on handbrakes for the Cinq may well be relevant.
See
https://www.fiatforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1925


Regards


John H

 

[Ronnie]

God jul!

But I'm right about that the ignition module can't have anything to do with how the car runs, only how it starts? Please confirm that, because then I might refuse to pay for that or got a better price for the whole deal... (it is free to fight [}])

 

[John H]

The distributor "module" failure I know about will stop the engine when it's very hot.

It will go normally until it stops. It will re-start when cooled down.

There is a bit on the distributor ( vacuum advance unit ) which fails, and effects how well the car goes on part throttle.

It won't stop the engine going.

It won't affect the top speed.

 

[Peetie]

1. The distributer fault is usually caused by a break down of the insulation on the wiring from the hall sensor to the amplifier module. The break down is hard to see but it will be there. Why this should cause the engine to stop when hot is not clear but i assume its expansion/contraction of the wiring..or a slight variation in resistance.
2. Breakdown of the idle compensator unit will cause poor running but usually worse when cold.
3. Both faults will have similar effects whether running injection or carb.
Uno handbrakes can be difficult to get right...but not near as bad as a cinquecento...So check as follows
Ensure movement compensator pulley mounted on axle beam is REALLY free to move both the pin to the axle and the pulley axle pin should be free to rotate.
Ensure pivot pin on handbrake operating link on back of hub is free to move.
Remove rear hubs (easier said than done) and check pivot on handrake links are free to move...really free.
If rear shoes are ok reassemble and adjust hand brake.
If handbrake does not adjust to work there are three things that may have to be replaced, the brake shoes, the brake drums or the handbrake cables as very small amounts of wear/strech in these components will make the handbrake ineffective. I usually replace them all now after about 50,000-60,000k as its quicker and easier than changing one component and rebuilding checking and having to replace the next on the list..I have learned this the hard way having maintained Unos, Puntos & Cinquecentos for almost 16 years now....hope this helps.

 

[chriseday]

Hello!
I have an 1988 uno 45 ie with a combination of these problems... The car will start every time, even up here in the winter freeze. As the temperature rises the "econ" meter will start to swing wildly and the car will cut out. It does, however, start up again right away, but does not run well. When the problem first began it only happened at around 75 degrees temp, and once the car was fully warm it ran like a dream. Now, however, this problem begins as soon as I start driving and cuts out all day long (I have become a master at balancing three pedals with two feet

Another (hopefully) related issue is that when the car is in a mood to cut out, it won't accellerate as before and has a hard time revving up and reaching higher rpms... When the car does idle (nowadays rarely) it also revs up as usual.

Thanks for any advice!
Chris in Stockholm Sweden

 

[Morty Mort]

Chris.

Do you have a square or round airfilter box? Anyway, there is an oil breather going from the engine top into the filter box. About one inch thick. It may be blocked with oil deposits. There should be a brass filter in there though to prevent flames. Oil deposits also get into the injection unit where it only should be air and gasoline. Clean this out if it's black and dirty. If your oil breather is clogged, the engine gets too much pressure and searches for relief elsewhere, usually up the oil level stick hole. Oil spreads up on the exhaust outlet and catches fire in the worst cases.

Morten.


Abarth alloys. Inter Alloy lowering. Phoenix Gold audio. Abarth steering wheel. Interior refurnishing.

Projects: K&N induction kit, racing seats, exhaust, window tinting.

 

[The Negotiator]

If you have the i.e. engine (with Bosch monotronic injection) then it sounds very much like my problem which was fixed by changing the vacuum advance unit.

Paul