Technical 4 x 4 Fiat 500

[ahmett]

The irony being that in development, Ford tested both 4WD and FWD versions of the RS around the infamous Nurburgring, and found the FWD version was quickest.

The main issue will be the extra transmission drag. If you've ever jumped from a 1.2 Panda into a 1.2 Panda 4X4, it feels like you're driving with the handbrake stuck on. It would need the 1.4 engine just to give the same performance as the 1.2.

Yeah fair enough. Thats why all those Audi quattros have crazy power = ). 211 hp in an Audi Q5 sounds nice!

 

[RobinPJ]

Yeah fair enough. Thats why all those Audi quattros have crazy power = ). 211 hp in an Audi Q5 sounds nice!

Ahmett I am sorry but you really need to listen to other people a bit! If you have 250 hp then losing 25 hp (for the sake of argument) to the transmission and carrying the extra weight of a four wheel drive system is not a big loss. (And if you are Audi and you have invested millions into marketing how cool and effective your 4WD cars are, all based on rally victories a generation ago, it is well worth it.)

But if you have a 70 hp car, losing the same amount of hp and adding the same amount of weight will be a disaster and will not make the car any fun at all.

 

[306maxi]

Ahmett I am sorry but you really need to listen to other people a bit! If you have 250 hp then losing 25 hp (for the sake of argument) to the transmission and carrying the extra weight of a four wheel drive system is not a big loss. (And if you are Audi and you have invested millions into marketing how cool and effective your 4WD cars are, all based on rally victories a generation ago, it is well worth it.)

But if you have a 70 hp car, losing the same amount of hp and adding the same amount of weight will be a disaster and will not make the car any fun at all.

It's more than that even (I know you were just giving it as an example)

With a Subaru I've seen figures of anywhere from 15-25% given for drivetrain loss. Now obviously I don't know what the drivetrain losses for a 2wd car are, but for our Subaru which develops 197bhp, that means that only 150-170 of them actually make it to the tyres.

 

[ahmett]

It's more than that even (I know you were just giving it as an example)

With a Subaru I've seen figures of anywhere from 15-25% given for drivetrain loss. Now obviously I don't know what the drivetrain losses for a 2wd car are, but for our Subaru which develops 197bhp, that means that only 150-170 of them actually make it to the tyres.

Guys i agree completely. Thats why i was saying it would be nice to have a 1.4 fiat 500 that has at least 120 hp with 4wd! This would counter the weight gain a bit, and ok why dont we make it 140 hp to keep everyone happy = )

 

[306maxi]

Guys i agree completely. Thats why i was saying it would be nice to have a 1.4 fiat 500 that has at least 120 hp with 4wd! This would counter the weight gain a bit, and ok why dont we make it 140 hp to keep everyone happy = )

Just remember that in addition to the power you need to simply overcome the drivetrain losses, you also need more power to push along the extra weight of the 4wd system and bigger brakes etc etc. Unless you're putting down so much power that 2wd simply doesn't cut it, then 4wd is rather pointless.

 

[ahmett]

Just remember that in addition to the power you need to simply overcome the drivetrain losses, you also need more power to push along the extra weight of the 4wd system and bigger brakes etc etc. Unless you're putting down so much power that 2wd simply doesn't cut it, then 4wd is rather pointless.

On normal roads yes maxi, but in low grip conditions i can feel the fiat lose the grip and in this case the 4wd would help!

 

[306maxi]

On normal roads yes maxi, but in low grip conditions i can feel the fiat lose the grip and in this case the 4wd would help!

I get what you're saying, when it gets towards this time of the year and my car is on summer tyres I can easily get wheelspin when it's damp. Winter tyres sort that out though. So my point is, are the tyres that you've got on simply past their best or not ideal for the conditions?

It would be far better just to fit a limited slip differential. 4wd is the lazy way out especially if the differentials are still completely open. Our Subaru has a limited slip diff at the rear which helps it to get by in the winter.

 

[loveshandbags]

Guys i agree completely. Thats why i was saying it would be nice to have a 1.4 fiat 500 that has at least 120 hp with 4wd! This would counter the weight gain a bit, and ok why dont we make it 140 hp to keep everyone happy = )

You'll never get 140bhp out of a 1.4 unless you boost it and it will take quite a bit of money to get to 120bhp (MINI had to put a 1.6 N/A in to get to that).
I would agree with a lot of what has been said in relation to drivetrain loses. A 'mate' of mine who had a Cossie 4WD (220bhp) after owning a Cossie 2WD (202bhp) and before that ! an 'old' RS Escort Turbo CVH with a bored out 1.9L (175bhp) said that the Escort CVH car was quicker (but not off the line) than the 4WD. Re powertrain 'losses' the old Escort was able to hold its own against the 4WD until cubic capacity won out at licence losing figures. When he got sense he ended up with a FWD RS2000 (150bhp) - 'simple' engine with no turbo.

Given that you created a thread last June about replacement tyres - it might be worthwhile investing in a set of permium tyres. Despite the loss in ride comfort & economy of the 16s I've found quite a difference in handling of the 16s v the 15s and on a 1.4 it might be justifiable. It would be a lot cheaper that a limited slip differential (which will lose typically 3mpg although still a very good choice) or the unobtainable 4WD.

 

[ahmett]

To be honest yes my tires are past their best but still have quite a lot of thread, i would say around 3-4 mm at 20,000 + miles (35000 km). And yes 195 is definatley better but that would mean having to buy 4 new rims and 4 new tires. = ) Unless i fit 195's on the 15 inch rim of course. There again for a tire to be as good as perfect it would basically have to have less tahn 5,000 miles at 7 mm or so on them because after 5,000 miles on them they start slowly slowly getting worse. Not illegal of course, but not as good as a fresh set. When i start feeling unsafe on my tires (so far i dont even in the wet), then i will change all 4 tires.
In any case i was saying that 4wd is better in all situations of low grip. And maxi i am a lazy guy and dont forget your subaru has an LSD AND 4wd so i guess they both help in their own way.

I was just pitching this as an idea for a 4wd version fiat 500 with more power or make a 1.2 turbo twinair with 150 hp. How fun would that be?
Twinair with more power + 4wd! = Crazy driving in all conditions! Now that would be an intense rally type car! And maxi to make you happy we can put an LSD on top of that. Lets call if the Fiat 500 4 x 4 ralleye.

I was mainly talking about losing grip in wet and slippery roads (the roads here are unimaginibly bad). Under good roads the fiat 500 does just fine under full power at high revs.
I remember the 106 Ralleye being an amazing handling FF car, but in slippery conditions not so much!

Another thing, with 4wd it is easier to recover an out of control car than an FF car. From what i feel, when you lose control in an FF car it is a case of Goodbye Mr Bond! or am i mistaken?

Regarding replacement tires i think i will go for the Dunlop SP fast responses.

 

[loveshandbags]

To be honest yes my tires are past their best but still have quite a lot of thread, i would say around 3-4 mm at 20,000 + miles...
Regarding replacement tires i think i will go for the Dunlop SP fast responses

My OH's mito is around 3 mm and there's a remarked difference between the grip they give now and when they were fresher. They're 17 x 215/45 PZeros with 32K miles - amazing wear. I recommended a set of Dunlop SP Sport Maxx to her but then I know nothing about tyres !
I remember someone on hear saying that there was more performance orientated tyres in 16s than 15s but it would be expensive for you to get a whole new set of wheels.
It's a pity you can't borrow those tyres of the Tribe car given that your roads don't seem to have any real tarmac.
Remember you have ASC/ESC as part of the 1.4 spec and it's a nice little feature to have.

 

[306maxi]

The Ford Ka runs 15" wheels with 195/50 R15 tyres so if you wanted to you could go for a wider tyre. Obviously you should inform your insurance company etc etc

 

[loveshandbags]

The Ford Ka runs 15" wheels with 195/50 R15 tyres so if you wanted to you could go for a wider tyre. Obviously you should inform your insurance company etc etc

That makes me feel good. An alternative use to those 'bargain' set of stilo steelies that I got in case the snow never comes. LOL.

 

[306maxi]

That makes me feel good. An alternative use to those 'bargain' set of stilo steelies that I got in case the snow never comes. LOL.

Well you best be ordering your winter tyres before any possible snow arrives. Order it when the snow arrives and it'll be gone by the time the tyres arrive

 

[D4nny8oy]

Another thing, with 4wd it is easier to recover an out of control car than an FF car. From what i feel, when you lose control in an FF car it is a case of Goodbye Mr Bond! or am i mistaken?

Most manufacturer's have gone down the FWD route because in any situation (understeer or oversteer), an average driver with no training can correct it with the natural tendancy to ease off the throttle.

With 4WD, yes it may handle the lateral loads ok at the same speed, but it tends to mean the owner gets complacent and drives faster in the same corner, which means when it finally lets go it tends to be a much bigger crash.

4WD usually promotes understeer under acceleration. Manufacturers like Mitsubishi add active diffs to aid turn-in, but under certain conditions (like lifting mid-corner) it will snap into major oversteer-

 

[jnoiles]

I'm the first to admit that the 500 is fun to chuck about and you can make it go around corners. But the thought of an AWD version with the 500 esse esse engine and box makes me go weak at the knees

 

[durukan]

world need this to be reborn from its ashes. 4WD abart 500 would come close though.

 

[ahmett]

Most manufacturer's have gone down the FWD route because in any situation (understeer or oversteer), an average driver with no training can correct it with the natural tendancy to ease off the throttle.

With 4WD, yes it may handle the lateral loads ok at the same speed, but it tends to mean the owner gets complacent and drives faster in the same corner, which means when it finally lets go it tends to be a much bigger crash.

4WD usually promotes understeer under acceleration. Manufacturers like Mitsubishi add active diffs to aid turn-in, but under certain conditions (like lifting mid-corner) it will snap into major oversteer-

MLR Spa trackday - EVO crashes M3 E46 - YouTube

That sounded like all the turbo power coming on at the same time to me or am i mistaken here?

 

[ahmett]

Most manufacturer's have gone down the FWD route because in any situation (understeer or oversteer), an average driver with no training can correct it with the natural tendancy to ease off the throttle.

With 4WD, yes it may handle the lateral loads ok at the same speed, but it tends to mean the owner gets complacent and drives faster in the same corner, which means when it finally lets go it tends to be a much bigger crash.

4WD usually promotes understeer under acceleration. Manufacturers like Mitsubishi add active diffs to aid turn-in, but under certain conditions (like lifting mid-corner) it will snap into major oversteer-

MLR Spa trackday - EVO crashes M3 E46 - YouTube

I think the trick is the 4wd system distributing power between front and rear that makes it a good system. Like for example in the r8 on top gear it looks like a rear wheel drive car but then when lose grip it puts some power on the front wheels. I am sure the nissan gtr does this well also. I think a good 4wd system with the stuff noiles mentioned would be proper INSANE.

 

[loveshandbags]

I think the trick is the 4wd system distributing power between front and rear that makes it a good system. Like for example in the r8 on top gear it looks like a rear wheel drive car but then when lose grip it puts some power on the front wheels. I am sure the nissan gtr does this well also. I think a good 4wd system with the stuff noiles mentioned would be proper INSANE.

A criticism of the GT-R was that there was so much electronics 'at play' that the car drove itself and took the FUN out of it.

EDIT: Just thought of the R8 - this was on RTE2 this week (& I got excused from peeling the spuds). 4WD controlled but lacking in the 'fun department'. Corvette - we wouldn't go there. IF you were in the market for a supercar (need a lotto win and a moment of insanity) it's probably the only supercar that would come with 'resonable' running costs (another insane thing to say on the 500 forum !)

 

[D4nny8oy]

That sounded like all the turbo power coming on at the same time to me or am i mistaken here?

Nope- he opened the throttle, started to slide, so had a "confidence lift" (hence why you can hear the dump valve) and it oversteered beyond his control. If he had ignored the natural tendancy to back off, and maintained a steady throttle, he probably would've continued on ok.