Technical 4 x 4 Fiat 500

[306maxi]

Nope- he opened the throttle, started to slide, so had a "confidence lift" (hence why you can hear the dump valve) and it oversteered beyond his control. If he had ignored the natural tendancy to back off, and maintained a steady throttle, he probably would've continued on ok.

When in doubt..... flat out

Just watch you don't end up like Colin though

 

[R1NGA]

Just to finish off the question of power loss through the 4WD transmission.....

Having built a supercharged Panda 4x4, I can confirm that 110bhp in a 950kg car is indeed good fun. The simple viscous-coupled drive setup is relatively light and extremely straightforward. Additional weight over a 2WD Panda is about 40kg I think (half a grown adult at most) and there will be some extra drag overall. However, on slimy roundabouts the car drives 4-square given encouragement and understeers much less in the same conditions than my 1.2 Eleganza. Feel similar to my old classic Impreza in fact.

Measured power at the wheels is 86bhp and calculated at the flywheel is 110bhp. Definately more of a drop than a 2WD setup, but not losses that spell the end of the world by any means. Car is faster than a 100HP, particularly at the top end, although slightly weaker at less than 2500rpm, before the Rotrex gets spinning effectively.

Damn good fun though. But the same setup in the cuter shape of the 500 would surely be a winner.

 

[ahmett]

Just to finish off the question of power loss through the 4WD transmission.....

Having built a supercharged Panda 4x4, I can confirm that 110bhp in a 950kg car is indeed good fun. The simple viscous-coupled drive setup is relatively light and extremely straightforward. Additional weight over a 2WD Panda is about 40kg I think (half a grown adult at most) and there will be some extra drag overall. However, on slimy roundabouts the car drives 4-square given encouragement and understeers much less in the same conditions than my 1.2 Eleganza. Feel similar to my old classic Impreza in fact.

Measured power at the wheels is 86bhp and calculated at the flywheel is 110bhp. Definately more of a drop than a 2WD setup, but not losses that spell the end of the world by any means. Car is faster than a 100HP, particularly at the top end, although slightly weaker at less than 2500rpm, before the Rotrex gets spinning effectively.

Damn good fun though. But the same setup in the cuter shape of the 500 would surely be a winner.

If Fiat was selling a 1.4 turbo 4 x 4 500, i would have definately bought one it would be an amazing little car. FF bores me for some reason, in all cars that are FF.
And FR wouldnt work at all in a car so short, without being only electronics.
I would never get a 300 hp FF car, like that crazy Ford Focus. They can put any diff or some 'creative electronics' i still wouldnt like it.
Might as well use the cash on a 'muscle' car, like a C class Mercedes which looks like good fun! (the C63 AMG must be MAD, although it is quite expensive).

 

[ahmett]

When in doubt..... flat out

Just watch you don't end up like Colin though
Colin McRae at 1992 Rally of Thousand Lakes - YouTube

I know off topic but that video reminded me of this!

 

[loveshandbags]

If Fiat was selling a 1.4 turbo 4 x 4 500, i would have definately bought one it would be an amazing little car. FF bores me for some reason, in all cars that are FF.
And FR wouldnt work at all in a car so short, without being only electronics.
I would never get a 300 hp FF car, like that crazy Ford Focus. They can put any diff or some 'creative electronics' i still wouldnt like it.
Might as well use the cash on a 'muscle' car, like a C class Mercedes which looks like good fun! (the C63 AMG must be MAD, although it is quite expensive).

Interesting review by Topgear on Estates covering the AMG C63 & the M5. They had to get a 'hold' of the runway at Manchester Airport when a firedrill was on to test them. Seriously - where can you use them.

As Maxi mentioned earlier on - FF does require more skill in a rally situation as clearly evident in this promotional clip. It looks like this skilled rally driver is having quite a lot of fun in his Fiat Punto which is FF (don't try this at 'home' !)...


In looking at AWD v 4WD v RWD this was an 'old' review from Vicki - please excuse the poor quality. Get the impression there was no ASC fitted on the Alfa but it illustrates that AWD is not necessarily going to 'save your bacon'.


As of the 1st of November 2011 all new models must be equipped with ESC but any old models currently on the forecourt without ESC can be sold until the end of 2013 (hope wiki is right on that one !). Thinking back on the profit 'discussion' Merc sold a lot of their 'early' A class models at a loss when they had to retrofit ESC after the 'Elk' incident so that they would not 'lose face'. The 500 is bit like an old A class with a high riding position.

 

[loveshandbags]

Just to finish off the question of power loss through the 4WD transmission.....

Having built a supercharged Panda 4x4, I can confirm that 110bhp in a 950kg car is indeed good fun. The simple viscous-coupled drive setup is relatively light and extremely straightforward. Additional weight over a 2WD Panda is about 40kg I think (half a grown adult at most) and there will be some extra drag overall. However, on slimy roundabouts the car drives 4-square given encouragement and understeers much less in the same conditions than my 1.2 Eleganza. Feel similar to my old classic Impreza in fact.

Measured power at the wheels is 86bhp and calculated at the flywheel is 110bhp. Definately more of a drop than a 2WD setup, but not losses that spell the end of the world by any means. Car is faster than a 100HP, particularly at the top end, although slightly weaker at less than 2500rpm, before the Rotrex gets spinning effectively.

Damn good fun though. But the same setup in the cuter shape of the 500 would surely be a winner.

It's surprising how Fiat only supplied the 4x4 in RHD with a petrol whilst in Europe a MJ can be got.
Had a read of the development of your car on the Panda section and you certainly 'broke new ground'. I was initially tempted by the work you had done (very discreet installation) but I'm not too sure I could loss the A/C given I have the glass roof ! Checking out Rotrex they don't appear to officially supply the SC for the 1.4 16V but I suppose the A500 is coming within the reach of some folk. It certainly is a sleeper in modern day terms. I like the 'modest' badge on the back !

 

[306maxi]

Interesting review by Topgear on Estates covering the AMG C63 & the M5. They had to get a 'hold' of the runway at Manchester Airport when a firedrill was on to test them. Seriously - where can you use them.

As Maxi mentioned earlier on - FF does require more skill in a rally situation as clearly evident in this promotional clip. It looks like this skilled rally driver is having quite a lot of fun in his Fiat Punto which is FF (don't try this at 'home' !)...
ItaliaspeedTV - Fiat Grande Punto Abarth Rally S2000 - YouTube

In looking at AWD v 4WD v RWD this was an 'old' review from Vicki - please excuse the poor quality. Get the impression there was no ASC fitted on the Alfa but it illustrates that AWD is not necessarily going to 'save your bacon'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV18ZBXwwYM

As of the 1st of November 2011 all new models must be equipped with ESC but any old models currently on the forecourt without ESC can be sold until the end of 2013 (hope wiki is right on that one !). Thinking back on the profit 'discussion' Merc sold a lot of their 'early' A class models at a loss when they had to retrofit ESC after the 'Elk' incident so that they would not 'lose face'. The 500 is bit like an old A class with a high riding position.

That Punto is 4wd.

 

[loveshandbags]

That Punto is 4wd.

O S**t. I looked at the wrong spec. This was the spec that I should have looked at !
Hopefully someone will get a better clip to 'backup' that FWD can be fun. Skip onto 1:40 to see how you can overcook a 500. The rest of it is pretty uneventful.

 

[D4nny8oy]

It's surprising how Fiat only supplied the 4x4 in RHD with a petrol whilst in Europe a MJ can be got.

I assume you've never seen the Panda Cross? Came out a few years ago in the UK? A 4X4 with the 1.3 mjet engine and some cosmetic changes and electronic locking diff?

IIRC, the 'normal' 4X4 was then available with the 1.3 diesel.

 

[loveshandbags]

I assume you've never seen the Panda Cross? Came out a few years ago in the UK? A 4X4 with the 1.3 mjet engine and some cosmetic changes and electronic locking diff?

Thanks for bringing that to my attention - TBH I never saw one !

I did some 'digging' on this and for the benefit of the FF there is 2 distinct models (I could be wrong on this !)
Panda Climbing 4x4 with a petrol engine &
Panda Cross with a different look, fancy diff (means that it will work with 'one' wheel) with a Multi-jet engine

The Cross is quire an impressive 4x4 (Click here). Fiat could have sold quite a few more given the secondhand values on them - a bit like hen's teeth judging by a recent thread on the Panda section about 3 wks ago.
Noticed that it was initially called the Monster
On a review against a Polo Cross the Panda earned its 'Cross' title being able to do the rough stuff better with that electronic locking diff you mentioned (its not on the 4x4 Climbing).
youtube FIAT PANDA CROSS VS VOLKSWAGEN POLO CROSS
From the bit of looking that I've done the Cross only came with the Multi-jet engine.

IIRC, the 'normal' 4X4 was then available with the 1.3 diesel.

I went into the abyss on this one !
Could not find any 'Climbing 4x4' as it is now called with a multijet but did find a french youtube on a 'standard' 4x4 with a MJ being reviewed in July 2011 - so it appears that at least on the continent it nows come with a MJ - I don't know about the UK (only the petrol is available in Eire). The guys on the Panda forum only seem to have the petrol model. Got the impression that the figures didn't add up for the MJ despite the high emissions of the petrol.

Came across this recent review (Aug 2011) and if you can get over the monotone of the 'presenter' some very good content it. IMHO there is a good piece at 2:50 testing the 4x4's braking capability of the Panda (which has not got ESP) against a 2.5 ton with ESP. At the very end of the review it mentions that ESP & the Multi-jet will be coming available (they're LHD) in the '4x4 Climbing'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=yErwvDAnWY8

Might be worthwhile posting a question on the Panda forum if the 4x4 Climbing comes with a MJ.:idea:

EDIT:

The Climbing is only 1242 petrol, the Cross is only 1248 turbo-diesel.

Only the climbing is being sold in Ireland - for €13500.

 

[R1NGA]

It's surprising how Fiat only supplied the 4x4 in RHD with a petrol whilst in Europe a MJ can be got.
Had a read of the development of your car on the Panda section and you certainly 'broke new ground'. I was initially tempted by the work you had done (very discreet installation) but I'm not too sure I could loss the A/C given I have the glass roof ! Checking out Rotrex they don't appear to officially supply the SC for the 1.4 16V but I suppose the A500 is coming within the reach of some folk. It certainly is a sleeper in modern day terms. I like the 'modest' badge on the back !

I understand your point about the loss of A/C, but as mine had none in the first place.....

Rotrex won't 'officially' supply anything, as of course most installs will be one-offs like mine. TTS do have some kits available off the shelf - the Aygo/107/C1 (125bhp for less than £3k I think) and an awesome upgrade for the Audi 4.2 40-valve v8 (550bhp) - but there will be a Rotrex appropriate for your 1.4. That'll be the C15/30 I suspect, which is what I started with, but it produced too much power on my engine and I went smaller. I suspect it would be fine on the 1.4 and would make good power and torque - probably about 160bhp or thereabouts. And of course without heat and tranny-busting torque issues associated with turbo conversions etc etc. I personally like superchargers a lot, although I appreciate its horses for courses.

 

[loveshandbags]

I understand your point about the loss of A/C, but as mine had none in the first place.....

Rotrex won't 'officially' supply anything, as of course most installs will be one-offs like mine. TTS do have some kits available off the shelf - the Aygo/107/C1 (125bhp for less than £3k I think) and an awesome upgrade for the Audi 4.2 40-valve v8 (550bhp) - but there will be a Rotrex appropriate for your 1.4. That'll be the C15/30 I suspect, which is what I started with, but it produced too much power on my engine and I went smaller. I suspect it would be fine on the 1.4 and would make good power and torque - probably about 160bhp or thereabouts. And of course without heat and tranny-busting torque issues associated with turbo conversions etc etc. I personally like superchargers a lot, although I appreciate its horses for courses.

I wasn't able to 'put my hands' on the differences between the F500 1.4 engine and the mods that were done to it for the A500 - but looking at a recent article that I posted on the 'hot ad' for the US A500 there was a hugh number of changes done for the MA. A F500 on boost (even just with a SC) - at 160bhp it will probably have a short life.

 

[ahmett]

I wasn't able to 'put my hands' on the differences between the F500 1.4 engine and the mods that were done to it for the A500 - but looking at a recent article that I posted on the 'hot ad' for the US A500 there was a hugh number of changes done for the MA. A F500 on boost (even just with a SC) - at 160bhp it will probably have a short life.

I guess we'll need to borrow an engine from VW group and put in the 1.4 tsi with 160 hp!

A 4 x 4 fiat 500 with a supercharger AND a turbocharger! Now thats what I am talking about!
All we now need is a DSG gearbox and we are proper into serious machinery property!

 

[306maxi]

I guess we'll need to borrow an engine from VW group and put in the 1.4 tsi with 160 hp!

A 4 x 4 fiat 500 with a supercharger AND a turbocharger! Now thats what I am talking about!
All we now need is a DSG gearbox and we are proper into serious machinery property!

The problem with that is that unless it's wet or snowy, an Abarth 500 will still be quicker. The power loss with having 2 extra diffs and the extra weight of everything will kill the performance on dry roads.