Technical 2017 Ducato 2.3, 180. Alternator problems

[Reavergy]

I am looking for advice on a 2017 Ducato 2.3, 180.
The battery light comes on a few minutes after starting the engine.
Vehicle drives and works normally.
Voltage is 12.4V, gradually reducing while driving to 12.1V. Then turned engine off to avoid battery discharging too much.
Idle slightly rised.
I think the alternator is not charging. Accessories belt is good and visually nothing wrong with the alternator.
Any tips or advice?
Vehicle is a motorhome, so once the engine battery is recharged with a charger, I can start the engine and then parallel in the 2 house batteries (2x 110 Amps). That should allow me to drive for a while even if the alternator is not charging?
Any help very welcome.

 

[Communicator]

I am looking for advice on a 2017 Ducato 2.3, 180.
The battery light comes on a few minutes after starting the engine.
Vehicle drives and works normally.
Voltage is 12.4V, gradually reducing while driving to 12.1V. Then turned engine off to avoid battery discharging too much.
Idle slightly rised.
I think the alternator is not charging. Accessories belt is good and visually nothing wrong with the alternator.
Any tips or advice?
Vehicle is a motorhome, so once the engine battery is recharged with a charger, I can start the engine and then parallel in the 2 house batteries (2x 110 Amps). That should allow me to drive for a while even if the alternator is not charging?
Any help very welcome.

I am thinking that the belt is slipping when the engine warms up. I had a similar experience many years ago after fitting an early alternator to a diesel Land Rover. Alternator output was OK when starting cold engine, but dropped away when the engine warmed up. I discovered from a minor finger burn that the alternator pulley was very hot, and diagnosed a slipping belt. As the belt from kit was at maximum tightness, I shopped for slightly shorter belt, which allowed further tensioning. Problem solved.

 

[the green vanper]

Everytime I had a slipping belt there was this strange sound. And most of the time it was when the cars were older than 10 - 15 years.

From the initial post I understand that there's no charging at all, as the alternator charging voltage should be around 14,4 V.

I will try to get the eLearn doc on the alternator later on.

 

[Reavergy]

Thank you for your replies. Definitely not a slipping belt. I looked at the alternator pulley spinning with the engine on.
Shortly before this happening there was a strange burnt smell. I thought it may be a dpf regen. Then a couple of hours later after restarting the engine the battery light went on.
I am fully recharging all batteries now hoping to have enough power to get home, about 1 &1/2 hour drive.

 

[Reavergy]

Am I correct in thinking that because the engine starts without a problem, the earth straps must be good?

 

[Anthony489]

Hi

A modern engine and alternator will charge the battery even at idling speed, and you should see around 14 volts at the battery terminals as soon as the engine starts. This suggests to me that your alternator is not charging. Even though feasible, economics dictate that not many repair places (in the UK at least) would bother changing parts or assemblies within the alternator, the normal procedure is just to fit a new or exchange one. Access is tight, so it's a bit fiddly and time consuming. Much access is from underneath so something soft to lie on is highly recommended !

If you decide on the DIY route, see my guide on this forum. This covers an older model but will give you an idea of what's involved: https://www.fiatforum.com/guides/ducato-2008-alternator-replacement.907/

 

[Abarthmultijet]

It can be that the 2017 model has an intelligent alternator. First scan your car with MultiEcuScan for faults. If your car has an intelligent alternator you need to program it.

 

[the green vanper]

Hi

If you decide on the DIY route, see my guide on this forum. This covers an older model but will give you an idea of what's involved: https://www.fiatforum.com/guides/ducato-2008-alternator-replacement.907/

Probably nothing changed on the alternator position, so it is possible the guide will still be valid.

As promised earlier, attached the 'Starting and recharging' eLearn doc.

 

[Reavergy]

Probably nothing changed on the alternator position, so it is possible the guide will still be valid.

As promised earlier, attached the 'Starting and recharging' eLearn doc.

Thank you. Incredibly awkward to get it out!

 

[Reg 65]

If it is a smart alternator it will only charge when the momentum of the vehicle is turning the engine, unless the battery is less that about 80% charged. So if you have fully charged the battery it will be discharging with the engine running whilst you are stationary, until it falls to about 80% charged.
So the usual method of testing a conventional alternator by revving the engine when stationary could lead you to think there is something wrong when there isn't.
You really need a meter like this;
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/156546902698 (thats from China you might have to pay a bit more to get the same thing from UK that arrives sooner)
So you can see what the alternator is doing when you are driving, you take your foot off the throttle, and the momentum of the vehicle is turning the engine.

 

[Reg 65]

Am I correct in thinking that because the engine starts without a problem, the earth straps must be good?

Apparently not. I read somewhere that a poor connection might not stop the high amperage of the starter motor, but might upset the delicate electronics controlling other things. It think it was around 2011 when I first read of a batch of defective earth leads on the X2/50 causing all sorts of problems. So I doubt they were still fitting defective earth lead on models built years later, but I added another lead just to be sure.

 

[Reavergy]

Probably nothing changed on the alternator position, so it is possible the guide will still be valid.

As promised earlier, attached the 'Starting and recharging' eLearn doc.

Spent the day on it. Tried every possible way but it wouldn't come out.
I see in your guide you remove the cast bracket holding the alternator and power steering pump. I had the same thought and I think it would come out that way but I could only reach the bottom 2 bolts. It looks like there are another 2 bolts higher up on my 2017 model, near the power steering pump, that I could not reach from below or above.
On the elearn they mention to remove the bottom engine mount next to the gearbox. I thought it didn't make sense, but then I spoke with another very knowledgeable forum member and he told me that the reason Fiat says to remove that is so that the engine can rotate on the side mounts and perhaps give enough room at the back to remove the alternator. I had not thought of that!
I will have another go tomorrow. Hopefully that works, otherwise it is going to Fiat to work on their "smart" (not) engineering and replace the rotten thing!!!

 

[the green vanper]

On the elearn they mention to remove the bottom engine mount next to the gearbox.

Have you checked the x290 model eLearn? or the x250?

 

[Reavergy]

Have you checked the x290 model eLearn? or the x250?

Thank you the green vanper. Yes, I think that's where they say to undo the bottom engine mount, next to the gearbox. I will try tomorrow.

 

[the green vanper]

Yes, eLearn for sure. But I don't know which one you looked at.

Just in case, that's the x290 / 295 eLearn, the Alternator removal doc.

If it's not online, try again later. The website is on a non prod server, so gets DDOSed by the users quite frequently

 

[Reavergy]

Update for other 2017-2019 Ducato owners with dual EGR needing to replace the alternator.
Alternator failed.
Symptoms in mine were burnt smell for a short period. Battery light coming on. Slightly raised idle. Voltage with engine running 12.4V.
Other than that vehicle runs and drives normally.
You can drive for a while with the alternator not charging, depending on the health of your battery. Mine is a motorhome so I paralled the 2 home batteries to the engine battery and I drove it for 2 hours without any problems. Batteries still had good charge at the end.
Alternator replacement was a real pita.
It is relatively easy to unbolt the alternator, but very difficult to get it out due to very limited access space.
I had to undo the bottom engine mount (near the gearbox) and tilt up the engine. I used a small mechanical bottle jack pushing up from the subframe to the gearbox. I tilted the engine up as far as it could go.
Then I had to undo the bottom clamp on the corrugated metal hose for the EGR. The clamp is very hard so I made up a spreader.
After that, with lots of patience, I found a way to manouvre the alternator out between the DPF and the power steering column.
Putting the new alternator in was even more difficult than removing the old one. You have to try fitting it in the same way, but this time gravity works against you and the alternator weights about 7kg, so the slow process of finding a way in takes its toll on your arms.
Once the new alternator is back up there it is quite easy to finish the job.
My old alternator had a freewheel clutch pulley. The new alternator I could find, recommended replacement for my vehicle is identical, but with a fixed pulley. I could swap the pulleys, but it requires a special tool, so I just installed it with the fixed pulley. I hope it is not going to make much of a difference. Comments and opinions on this are very welcome.
The original alternator Fiat (Bosch) would have been $2515AUD. The identical (except pulley) aftermarket Bosch alternator I got was $575AUD.
Attached are a few pics that could be useful if you need to do the job.

 

[Reavergy]

Thank you to Anthony489 for for your reply with the very helpful guide writep (even if it is for an older model most things are the same), and to the green vanper for your reply with the elearn doc.