Technical 2.8 jtd wont start / build rail pressure

[Deano2208]

hi all
We have a Fiat Ducati motor home with the 2.8 jtd engine.
Motor home has been sitting for 2 years with a broken engine.
We have fitted another 2 hand motor but it build rail pressure.
Delivery pump pumps plenty of fuel to main pump but won’t build rail pressure.
Fuel pressure control valve has been fitted new ?
Please any ideas little or big would be a help

Thanks Dean

 

[bugsymike]

hi all
We have a Fiat Ducati motor home with the 2.8 jtd engine.
Motor home has been sitting for 2 years with a broken engine.
We have fitted another 2 hand motor but it build rail pressure.
Delivery pump pumps plenty of fuel to main pump but won’t build rail pressure.
Fuel pressure control valve has been fitted new ?
Please any ideas little or big would be a help

Thanks Dean

Can you do a "leak off " test which would show any weak injectors, this can cause that issue.

 

[Deano2208]

Can you do a "leak off " test which would show any weak injectors, this can cause that issue.

Unfortunately not getting any pressure to the rail .
Pressure just coming straight out of return of fuel pump.

 

[bugsymike]

Unfortunately not getting any pressure to the rail .
Pressure just coming straight out of return of fuel pump.

Unfortunately not getting any pressure to the rail .
Pressure just coming straight out of return of fuel pump.

Oh! So even with new pressure regulator, have you got a spare high pressure pump to try, I assume pump is being driven?
Sounds daft but I have just been fixing a strange rattle on a Fiat Scudo 2.0 litre , the cause was the drive on end of cam shaft was almost completely broken away.
On the 2.8 it is driven from that large block bolted to the side of the engine with from memory the brake servo and power steering drive, all powered from the cam belt, do they all appear to be functioning or trying if only cranking?
Some online have had problems with a gauze filter getting blocked inside the high pressure pump, but I don't no if that is relevant in your case.
Stupid question, not the immobiliser side?

 

[Deano2208]

Oh! So even with new pressure regulator, have you got a spare high pressure pump to try, I assume pump is being driven?
Sounds daft but I have just been fixing a strange rattle on a Fiat Scudo 2.0 litre , the cause was the drive on end of cam shaft was almost completely broken away.
On the 2.8 it is driven from that large block bolted to the side of the engine with from memory the brake servo and power steering drive, all powered from the cam belt, do they all appear to be functioning or trying if only cranking?
Some online have had problems with a gauze filter getting blocked inside the high pressure pump, but I don't no if that is relevant in your case.
Stupid question, not the immobiliser side?

I thought the immobiliser wouldn’t let you have any key to starter power at all.
I’m missing something??
Today I have double checked all fuses and relays.
Hopefully with this form o won’t be beaten.

 

[bugsymike]

I thought the immobiliser wouldn’t let you have any key to starter power at all.
I’m missing something??
Today I have double checked all fuses and relays.
Hopefully with this form o won’t be beaten.

No, starter will turn but that's all.
Normally there will be a warning on dashboard, I can't remember on yours but often a yellow triangle or key picture.
Others on Forum can advise on exact warning, as most of my work on those engines was in Iveco Daily and the odd Ducato several years ago as I am now retired.

 

[Communicator]

No, starter will turn but that's all.
Normally there will be a warning on dashboard, I can't remember on yours but often a yellow triangle or key picture.
Others on Forum can advise on exact warning, as most of my work on those engines was in Iveco Daily and the odd Ducato several years ago as I am now retired.

I can confirm that a padlock symbol is displayed on the instrument panel, when key code recognition fails (Fiat Immobiliser). I have checked just now on my 2.8jtd, and the symbol normally only illuminates very briefely, when ignition is first turned on.
I note that the hp pump regulator has been changed. The regulator is pulse width modulated, and with no supply from the ECU, it seems that the pump will not achieve the minimum pressure required for the ECU to allow injection. Not easy to do, but I would want to confirm that the control sigmal from the ECU is reaching the valve. For a meaningful result, a voltage test would need to be performed with the valve connected, so as to expose any possibile high resistance connection in the wiring. Access to the connector is poor, but perhaps back probing with needle probes?

eLearn does not have much to say about the 2.8jtd hp pump and reulator. The appropriate sections are attached as are the engine management wiring diagrams. I have assumed no EGR, and metal cannister fuel filter when selecting engine management diagrams. Inspection of diagram E5050-2b shows the fuel pressure regulator in the lower LHS corner. You will be pleased to note that there are no intermediate connectors.


Unless I am mistaken, diagram E5050-2b shows the pressure regulator rather poorly, in the relevant wiring should connect to the end rather than the side of the pump, but then I am "a fastidious old gentlman".

 

[Deano2208]

I can confirm that a padlock symbol is displayed on the instrument panel, when key code recognition fails (Fiat Immobiliser). I have checked just now on my 2.8jtd, and the symbol normally only illuminates very briefely, when ignition is first turned on.
I note that the hp pump regulator has been changed. The regulator is pulse width modulated, and with no supply from the ECU, it seems that the pump will not achieve the minimum pressure required for the ECU to allow injection. Not easy to do, but I would want to confirm that the control sigmal from the ECU is reaching the valve. For a meaningful result, a voltage test would need to be performed with the valve connected, so as to expose any possibile high resistance connection in the wiring. Access to the connector is poor, but perhaps back probing with needle probes?

eLearn does not have much to say about the 2.8jtd hp pump and reulator. The appropriate sections are attached as are the engine management wiring diagrams. I have assumed no EGR, and metal cannister fuel filter when selecting engine management diagrams. Inspection of diagram E5050-2b shows the fuel pressure regulator in the lower LHS corner. You will be pleased to note that there are no intermediate connectors.


Unless I am mistaken, diagram E5050-2b shows the pressure regulator rather poorly, in the relevant wiring should connect to the end rather than the side of the pump, but then I am "a fastidious old gentlman".

Thanks mate will do more tests today with that information

 

[Deano2208]

Thanks mate will do more tests today with that information

And you were spot on with the model/no egr

 

[godsking]

Thanks mate will do more tests today with that information

did you get it running i have the same problem can you please let me know on wattsapp +353851977735 regards.declan

 

[Elmerthud]

did you get it running i have the same problem can you please let me know on wattsapp +353851977735 regards.declan

I have a friends 2.8jtd and it will not start also he had a problem with it last yr and the cam belt had sheared 2 teeth from it it would turn over but not start got it running new timing belt fitted and crank sensor as it had a knock from belt I presume. Been running ok for the past 4months. Any way he was going out in it last month and it just stopped at a roundabout. And will not start we haven’t looked at it yet NO TIME. It cranks and immobiliser light extinguishes. But will not fire up. Any ideas please. I thought it might be the fuel rail pressure valve or pump but as I say not looked at it yet regards. Paul. (Elmer )

 

[bugsymike]

I have a friends 2.8jtd and it will not start also he had a problem with it last yr and the cam belt had sheared 2 teeth from it it would turn over but not start got it running new timing belt fitted and crank sensor as it had a knock from belt I presume. Been running ok for the past 4months. Any way he was going out in it last month and it just stopped at a roundabout. And will not start we haven’t looked at it yet NO TIME. It cranks and immobiliser light extinguishes. But will not fire up. Any ideas please. I thought it might be the fuel rail pressure valve or pump but as I say not looked at it yet regards. Paul. (Elmer )

Sounds like friend was incredibly lucky, I have never come across a 2.8, or 2.5 Sofim with cam belt failure that hasn't bent valves and at least one con rod.
I assume the cam is turning this time on the non runner?
Is the rev counter moving a bit, that should at least indicate crank sensor reading.
Have you got MES or something else to read common rail pressure?

 

[Elmerthud]

Hi bugsmike
Yes we had it running he’s used it a few times it’s on a Hymer camper. But this time it just stopped at the roundabout near his home. Lucky he was there as last time it cost him€650 to get it back home any way as I say it just stopped no warning. It started up straight after ran for around 20seconds and shut down will not start not even a splutter turns over no problem immobiliser light goes out but nothing

 

[Elmerthud]

I can only guess it’s a lack of fuel. I’m going to look at it this afternoon before he gets it towed to mine. He had it at 3 different garages in Ireland only one got it running that was when timing belt stripped is it safe to try easy start in the air intake see if it fires ??

 

[Deano2208]

Hi sorry I haven’t gotten back to let you know my out come.
All the information that everybody gave me was fantastic and helped me test the parts of the pump that electrical controlled and they all worked.
Which help with my diagnosis of fuel pump failure.
Customer purchased their own brand new pump fitted it bleed system and engine started straight away.
After what I have just been through with these engines as long as the to electrical control parts are working you need a new pump.
I have since left that work shop gone to the gold mines WA Australia to work big stuff Mt 4400
All the best

 

[bugsymike]

I can only guess it’s a lack of fuel. I’m going to look at it this afternoon before he gets it towed to mine. He had it at 3 different garages in Ireland only one got it running that was when timing belt stripped is it safe to try easy start in the air intake see if it fires ??

Last resort easy start Maybe just a short spray, but don't try and keep it running on it! Generally if a modern diesel doesn't fire right off, something is wrong.

 

[Elmerthud]

Last resort easy start Maybe just a short spray, but don't try and keep it running on it! Generally if a modern diesel doesn't fire right off, something is

Last resort easy start Maybe just a short spray, but don't try and keep it running on it! Generally if a modern diesel doesn't fire right off, something is wrong.

Right been to see the Ducato and it cranks over no problem padlock goes out no problem I loosened an injector pipe and there is fuel there but definitely not under pressure. Gave it a small amount of easy start to see if it actually runs and it fired up straight away so what do I check now as it has to be fuel pressure related. ?? Cheers Elmer

 

[bugsymike]

Right been to see the Ducato and it cranks over no problem padlock goes out no problem I loosened an injector pipe and there is fuel there but definitely not under pressure. Gave it a small amount of easy start to see if it actually runs and it fired up straight away so what do I check now as it has to be fuel pressure related. ?? Cheers Elmer

It's definitely a common rail JTD engine? If so you will not see any fuel under pressure much as injectors can only fire if the pressure in the common rail is around 230 Bar. So you wouldn't want to get your fingers near that!!!
When you say fires up straight away, do you mean it keeps running without easy start spray?
If so it could be a weak injector which may show up with a "leak off " test.
Ideally you need to connect to a diagnostic tool to get more information.

 

[Elmerthud]

And my apologies the no starter is a 244. On a 2004 reg. yes it’s a common rail jtd 2.8 and as I say with the injector pipe just loosened there is a small dribble of fuel but not under any pressure??and no it doesn’t keep on running only fired on easy start no fuel getting to engine as I said no fuel pressure

 

[Elmerthud]

And my apologies the no starter is a 244. On a 2004 reg. yes it’s a common rail jtd 2.8 and as I say with the injector pipe just loosened there is a small dribble of fuel but not under any pressure??and no it doesn’t keep on running only fired on easy start no fuel getting to engine as I said no fuel pressure

When you asked if the Rev counter is moving I didn’t realise you meant is it moving when cranking it ?