Technical 1.2 Running issues, what next?

[Senile Rodentia]

Hi All,
Picked up a 1.2 lounge (2015) for my daughter to learn in. Now I was expecting some problems because it was cheap, but I'm not sure exactly where to aim the parts cannon next.
It has a lumpy idle and won't rev, struggles under load, then all of a sudden, the revs will shoot round to the red line. It's almost like the mid range doesn't exist when pulling away. Seems to cruise ok however.
So far, it's had plugs, leads, coil pack, vvt solenoid, oil change, throttle body clean/reset, MAF clean, new earth lead/earth points cleaned, brake light switch, tank of Vpower and a bottle of injector cleaner.
It upped the ante tonight by dying a few yards from where I'd pulled away from and refusing to idle for a bit. Eventually managed to get it moving, by feeding it a handful of revs, but it just seems to want to cut out. It also keeps flashing up various errors mostly relating to hill start or esc.

I'm thinking injector clean next, is this the most likely cause or should I be looking elsewhere? Could the tailgate wiring cause the electrical issues? It wasn't throwing any error codes either, except a P0504 which is the brake switch (which has been replaced). Is there more than one brake switch?
Would be interested to know what else could cause this code?

Any help appreciated so I can get teaching!

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi,

I've had a 2018 for 4 years now, purchased at 50k knowing it's a basic 1980s design, with VVT thrown atop

I put the upgraded Plugs in from day 1,

Its run OK, But Far from brilliantly
My other FIAT cars are all more modern 75 hp Turbodiesels

And 2 Cyl turbo petrols

NONE of them behave the same

The 3 diesels ALL sound different, but run acceptably... Point being.. There Are variables

My 2018 is my only 500,
I've had all variants of panda as they are more practical, although almost identical mechanically

Ok, some history

The 500s VVT motor started in 2008,

Seemed reliable in service
(Head Gasket issues due to poor cooling maintenance excepted)
DO check for Mayonnaise when doing the Valve Clearances..

around 2014/15 the ECU Mapping changed,.. (For Emissions..?) was a real can of worms
(SEARCH "Watchdog" on here)

It was described as dangerous - where the car would stumble and loose power, really awkward at junctions


The VVT side Can present problems also, worth reading more on here

 

[Ralf S.]

Does it feel like it's running out of petrol when it loses power, or is it more abrupt, as if someone turned off the ignition?

And do any lights come on, while it's mis-behaving (ignition, oil pressure maybe... but what about ABS or Airbag... anything like that)?

I'd look at the fuel next.. the fuel pump could have a split internal hose and just not able to always lift enough petrol.. or the fuel filter might be blocked .. or the regulator is not regulating. Start at the engine end and see whether you have lots of petrol coming out.. then work backwards to the pump.


Ralf S.

 

[John202020]

Throttle pedal sensor?
Try un plug Lambda sensor(top one) eml on, what does it do?

 

[Senile Rodentia]

Does it feel like it's running out of petrol when it loses power, or is it more abrupt, as if someone turned off the ignition?

And do any lights come on, while it's mis-behaving (ignition, oil pressure maybe... but what about ABS or Airbag... anything like that)?

I'd look at the fuel next.. the fuel pump could have a split internal hose and just not able to always lift enough petrol.. or the fuel filter might be blocked .. or the regulator is not regulating. Start at the engine end and see whether you have lots of petrol coming out.. then work backwards to the pump.


Ralf S.

When it died last night, it was like it had run out of fuel. Struggled to get it on my drive cos it just kept trying to die as soon as you let the clutch up. That's why I was thinking injectors, but it seems that Evap valve, failing fuel pump, duff o2 sensor, failing MAP could all cause the same symptoms.
It does throw up EML and the warning triangle when it dies, but the only messages on the dash are related to Hill hold/esc. P0504 was the only error code last I checked, but I'll have another look when it's light

 

[Senile Rodentia]

Throttle pedal sensor?
Try un plug Lambda sensor(top one) eml on, what does it do?

Possibly, any idea how to test that, I've got Alfaobd if I need a tool.
Haven't tried Lambda sensor, I'll give it a go at a less unreasonable hour when I'm off shift!

 

[Mike1alike]

Possibly, any idea how to test that, I've got Alfaobd if I need a tool.

Read the throttle pedal position and the throttle position plus desired throttle position.

 

[steveras57]

About two years ago my 1.2 had a problem of low power off idle and very lumpy tickover (felt through ya bum in the drivers seat!) like yourself i did plugs coils leads t/body etc etc to no avail injector cleaner had no effect !,in the end more through frustration than anything else i bought a compete used injector rail with injectors which once fitted completely cured the issues!
If you can find a used rail that has returns accepted on flea bay or the like might be worth a try cause if ya fit it and it dont work you can send it back!, or maybe a set of new injectors if you can find them at a reasonable price!.
Trouble is injectors dont just clog they also wear both mechanically and electrically(resistance ) wise (which knackers the spray pattern so fuel dont burn properly! and car can not run right!.
good luck!.

 

[Mike1alike]

So far, it's had plugs, leads, coil pack, vvt solenoid, oil change, throttle body clean/reset, MAF clean, new earth lead/earth points cleaned, brake light switch, tank of Vpower and a bottle of injector cleaner.

Maybe... also check the timing.

 

[Senile Rodentia]

One other question..should it start without the clutch pedal pressed?

It's idling like a diesel, but still no fault codes

Read the throttle pedal position and the throttle position plus desired throttle position.

Cheers, I can do this, but I have no idea what I'm looking for, what values am I expecting? Looks like the desired throttle position isn't going as high as the other two but I'm no expert.

 

[Mike1alike]

Cheers, I can do this, but I have no idea what I'm looking for, what values am I expecting?

Well... I was thinking physically, to check if crankshaft and camshaft sit on the marks if engine has marks or check it using shafts locking tools.
With Alphaobd you can check VVT desired vs. actual position.
Also, about O2 sensors, better than unplug one is to record a graphic with their voltage.

 

[steveras57]

my problems did not flag any fault codes either! and my milage was much lower than yours at 64k.

 

[timmycm850]

Very basic idea but have you checked the actual battery voltage.
Standing battery.
Battery with engine at idle.
Battery with engine at 2500 revs.

Should never get down to less than 12.65 volts(apart from cranking it may get down to 10.5v)

 

[John202020]

Will it cruise at 70 in 4th( not 5th ) this is a rough simple timing check

 

[The Panda Nut]

We had evap solenoid failure and it set off EML. Synptonss were no ability to go over 40mph. The car ran more or less ok apart from being in limp home. Tickover was fairly normal. Just for info.

 

[Senile Rodentia]

Very basic idea but have you checked the actual battery voltage.
Standing battery.
Battery with engine at idle.
Battery with engine at 2500 revs.

Should never get down to less than 12.65 volts(apart from cranking it may get down to 10.5v)

Battery in rude health, 12.87 standing, 13.98 idle, 14.00 2500, 13.96 with absolutely everything switched on, 11v cranking

 

[Senile Rodentia]

Will it cruise at 70 in 4th( not 5th ) this is a rough simple timing check

It'll cruise at 50, nowhere with a 70 limit round here!! I can't go too far away, I might not make it back!!

 

[Senile Rodentia]

About two years ago my 1.2 had a problem of low power off idle and very lumpy tickover (felt through ya bum in the drivers seat!) like yourself i did plugs coils leads t/body etc etc to no avail injector cleaner had no effect !,in the end more through frustration than anything else i bought a compete used injector rail with injectors which once fitted completely cured the issues!
If you can find a used rail that has returns accepted on flea bay or the like might be worth a try cause if ya fit it and it dont work you can send it back!, or maybe a set of new injectors if you can find them at a reasonable price!.
Trouble is injectors dont just clog they also wear both mechanically and electrically(resistance ) wise (which knackers the spray pattern so fuel dont burn properly! and car can not run right!.
good luck!.

Cheap enough to be worth a try I reckon, I'm thinking this is #1 candidate, it's the lack of error codes that makes me think that. Pretty much any of the other sensors would throw some kind of error. I also gave it an italian tune up on the way to work and that was when it decided to run worse which makes me think something moved and blocked fuel flow.

Throttle pedal sensor?
Try un plug Lambda sensor(top one) eml on, what does it do?

Can't reach the plug without moving a couple of bits out the way, will have a go later

We had evap solenoid failure and it set off EML. Synptonss were no ability to go over 40mph. The car ran more or less ok apart from being in limp home. Tickover was fairly normal. Just for info.

This is helpful, these aren't the symptoms I'm experiencing and a fuel purge works on Alfaobd, so I think this is probably ok for now.

 

[John202020]

It'll cruise at 50, nowhere with a 70 limit round here!! I can't go too far away, I might not make it back!!

You can try in a lower gear say 35 in second basically will it run continuously at say 4000 rpm without issue for at least a minute a indication with the timing out by a tooth is the engine goes into limp mode at high speed/ revs but ok round town just another thing that may be ruled less likely

 

[Senile Rodentia]

You can try in a lower gear say 35 in second basically will it run continuously at say 4000 rpm without issue for at least a minute a indication with the timing out by a tooth is the engine goes into limp mode at high speed/ revs but ok round town just another thing that may be ruled less likely

Yeah, it got ragged into work in second mainly and it was fine at high revs, no limp mode. Def not ok at low speeds tho. Pulling away is where the issues lie.