How would it be to replace the bottom end of my smoky 140k Punto mk.1 1242 ELX85 engine, with a lo-mile Punto mk.2-and-a-half 1368 Sporting bottom end and 6sp box, putting all the mk.1 ancillaries back on incl my recon'd mk.1 head, the mk.1 injection system, all mk.1 electronics, EMS etc?

In other words, the existing 1242 engine and everything but with a 1368 bottom end. Or perhaps a Panda 100 bottom end - or what?

Would the 1242 head fit? What about resultant compression ratio, shape of piston crowns etc?

Would the 1242 electronics, EMS etc work with 1368 displacement? If not, practicable to tinker the injection and/or re-map the standard EMS, to retain standard mk.1 behaviour?

The reason to not switch to full mk.2-and-a-half 1368 everything, is that the mk.1's character is so nice and snappy - e.g. instant cable-op throttle response instead of over-clever fly-by-wire throttle.

Should be do-able. Ideally, re-map.

Silly Q but just to aid understanding - what kind of effects wd there be, by not re mapping?

You'd expect a 1.4 to want different fuelling, different ignition curve.

I mean, if the fuelling wasn't affected, you'd gain absolutely nothing!"

why splitting engine and not fitting the whole 1.4 lump?

fingers99 said:

if the fuelling wasn't affected, you'd gain absolutely nothing!"

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Gd point!

So is it possible to re-map a mk.1 ELX85 ECU or wd I have to go after-market? in fact how wd I go about it - don't want a fiercer state of tune, just like standard mk.1ELX85/Sporting but bigger capacity.

dave said:

why splitting engine and not fitting the whole 1.4 lump?

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Because the whole mk.2 setup AFAIK loses a lot of the mk.1's great character. Biased more towards stump-pulling and fuel economy, less towards instant throttle response. Certainly the mk.2 1242 loses 4 or 5bhp compared with the mk.1, so the benefit of the mk.2 1368's extra cc's is diluted.

the 1242 loses the 5hp because of the cams, the mk1 1242 cams are back in the 1368

fostertom said:

Gd point!

So is it possible to re-map a mk.1 ELX85 ECU or wd I have to go after-market? in fact how wd I go about it - don't want a fiercer state of tune, just like standard mk.1ELX85/Sporting but bigger capacity.

Click to expand...

You might struggle in Dartmoor!

A worthwhile place to ask would be the rolling road guys Peter (ex Oldschool, ex GSR) used to use. You'll probably find them on the Performance Fiat site (if anyone has paid the bill!).

Peter very much rated what could be done with that ECU.

As a rough guide, folk seem to get 110bhp out of the 1.4 16v with nothing more than a decent manifold and a "proper" TB (Rover K Series Dell'Orto, etc.) when running aftermarket ECUs. A remap should give you much the same.

Hey, gd info from dave and fingers

So I'd fit the complete 1368 mk.2-and-a-half Sporting incl head (and 6sp box) - but the electronics, ECU and other top-end gear would come from the mk.1 ELX85 - right? - so as to retain cable throttle and old fashioned things like that?

Are there any alternative Sporting-spec 1368 motors I cd also look out for, like Panda 100 or even Ford Ka?

Thinking of same in my Uno 70SX, also!

Probably. (For the first question).

For the second, the Stilo and Idea both use a 1.4 16v, but it doesn't have the strange variator wart that the 100bhp does, so is generally easier to mess with. A fair few have found their way into Centos.

Fantastic gd advice - thanks v much, Dave's about the cams, too.

What do you mean about 'decent manifold' - means exhaust manifold? Where wd that come from?

most commonly supersprint, but in the punto (much more room at front than a cento) you could go with any brand of 4-2-1 available for the engine. Cento's have very limited space for the manifold once a 1.4 16v engine has been shoe-horned into the very small bay

Ah great, but the standard manifold ain't bad, is it? I'm thinking of 1368cc in a way that an insurance assessor wouldn't notice!

The non manicat one isn't bad. But how much is your insurer going to hit you for an ashley or supersprint?

they have mani-cat ones, would look very out of place... the flange is different so you can't just use your existing one... So declared aftermarket would be your best bet really, but ultimately in the event of a claim and your car being scrutinised all they have to do is check the engine number and it will be clear that you been telling them porkies.

If you used your head though then manifold would fit but i feel duty bound to tell you not declaring such things is naughty :nono:

Yeah you're right.

So I get this clear - 'the flange is different so you can't just use your existing one' means the 1368 mk.2-and-a-half head has different ports so the standard mk.1 ex manif won't fit?

'If you used your head though then manifold would fit' - so I cd use my existing 1242 mk.1 head and ex manif on the 1368 block?

yep

Lots more Qs arise, like wd it make a performance/responsiveness difference, which head+manif combo we use - but guess we'll just have to get the bits in front of us.

well there is some real 16v experts in the cento section, i never really messed with one other than normal servicing so not that much i can tell you really...

All i can tell you really regarding the heads is most have hydraulic lifters but some have double valve springs which are better for tuning purposes (all i know of came out of p85 elx as it happens), but they are not common. I would have a look inside your and if you have springs then keep the head.