Hello everyone, ,

Im new here so don't know if my threads in the right place!

I have a 2002 1.2 fiat punto, i bought it 2nd hand 7 months ago with 46k on the clock. it now has 50k on the clock.

It came with a months warranty , after about 6 weeks i went to start it turned the key and nothing it just made a dddd sound like the battery just died. i left it for a few mins then did the key again and it spluttered and came to life. it hadnt been driven a lot and as i was going on a 2 hour trip i thought id see how it was after, which it seemed fine.

in the following months when i go to start the car ,on the the first start of the day it seems to be slugish, it sounds a bit like the starter motor sticks, like it begins to turn and then slows down and then kicks in, but it seems to start every time.

I had been wondering if the starter motor was on the way out, but i also had it in mind that the battery might be on its way out or not charging properly, or a faulty alternator, from when i first got the car and after 6 weeks it felt like the battery was about to die!

Anyway also in the months i have had it when driving it i could swear every now and again i could see a red light on the dash flicker on and off, but it would literraley be for less than a 10th of a second, i couldnt really see what it was, so i didnt know if it was a problem or not

anyway a week ago, over 3 days, on the first start up i heard like a whiring noise like a washing machine on spin, it would like for about 30 secs to a min and then it didnt happen for the rest of the day, on the 3rd day i drove the car 300 miles to see family, it drove fine, its been parked up for 4 days and i went to drive it yesterday, the car started again but slugish as described above like the starter motor was sticking or not getting enough power. there was no whiring noise, so i drove the car, after 2-3 mins of driving the steering warning light came on, although im sure i still had power steering, it didnt seem heavy . i stopped the car. turned the engine off, turned it back on and the warning light was off, i drove the car and after 10 secs the light came back on, so i went home, i parked up. turned engine off and on, the light was off, i kept the car stationary and turned the wheel, the second i did the warning light came on.

Has anyone any thoughts, if the steering has gone? although wouldnt the steering be heavy?
could it be the alternator or battery? as i read if not enough power goes to the steering it shows up as a fault?
ive read that new steering cost £600? i think theres a place that does reconditioned ones on the net for £160, are they worth considering.

I was thinking of calling the AA out as im a full member to do a computer check, will that tell you what the exact problem is with the steering? or will it just say steering has gone?
Also to get the AA to try and test the battery is charging properly and the alternator is giving the right voltage,

does anyone have any advice? as i cant really pay £600 for new steering! i havent even finished paying the car off yet!

Thanks for any help

I think you might have more than one issue.

You're right to look at the battery and how it's being charged. Get it tested for free to see if it is ok, if it is, then it is likely to be a problem in how it it is charged (alternator).

Red light - could be brake fluid level, check it's ok, ensure filter is removed from tank when doing so.

Whirring - could be radiator fan, you can force it on to check.

Most common problem with these symptoms is dying battery.
Get the battery checked, and the alternator charge rate.
Likely, new battery will cure all.

Does the trip reset at startup when starter is sluggish? This is also an indicator of a dying battery.

Thanks Atom0007 and portland bill
I think the red light that flashed for a brief second every so often when driving must of been the steering light, as its in the same place as where the flash would come from, i just wasnt sure at the time that it was that as it never came on long enough

will check the brake fluid, i did top it up 2 months ago as the light came on fr that when i was going around corners!

I dont know much about engines! can i find out how to force the fan on by you tubing it?
ive heard the fan before but this seemed much louder and a different type of whiring sound, but i suppose that could be why? if it sounds diff?

Portland bill, i have no idea what you mean by does the trip reset at startup when sluggish, what is it and how do i know?

Also if the battery is on its way out or the alternator isnt charging it properly then can that make the stater seem to stick?

will get AA to check, hopefully they can find it, if it is that hopefully the steering will be ok?

thanks for your help

Flat battery seems to make the starter "stick", as in it tries to turn, then stops, then tries again. ...

This is because the power required to start depends on the positions of the pistons, etc., through friction (stiction)

You can disconnect the coolant temperature sensor to force the fan on.

ive found the big red lead that goes to the battery can cause all your faults as where the cable end crimps onto the battery clamp it builds up resistance in the joint
the cure is a new lead from starter to battery or a good one off a breaker but whos to know if the breaker one is any better

punto problems said:

Portland bill, i have no idea what you mean by does the trip reset at startup when sluggish, what is it and how do i know?

Click to expand...

As well as the mileometer, you also have a trip meter, that can record miles for a single trip. This is accessed from the menu, or the button on the end of the wiper stalk. This can be reset by you, anytime, but if the battery is failing, it will often reset to zero as you try to start the car.

Hopefully that now makes sense, but if not, have a look and ask again.

Clock resets too with discharged battery

can i find out how to force the fan on by you tubing it?

Click to expand...

Maybe. But easy way to check it is to find the green coded sensor to the extreme right of the engine, at the back, near the thermostat. If you unplug that and start the car the radiator fan should come on within a minute (it's a sort of fail safe).

Thanks everyone. The steering light had gone off for a while, but today came back on, so i got the AA out. He checked the battery alternator and the fuses and said they were fine, had plugged the computer in and said it gave code c1006 steering movement sensor fault. he then took the cover off to see that all the wires looked ok and said they were and said that the whole column needed changing and advised i get a reconditioned one as new ones are £600-£700.

he recommended a garage called woodcock cars in willerby hull, he said they use a better quality of reconditioned units, i gave them a ring and was quoted £295 for the unit then £90 for fitting. it comes with 2yrs warrenty. is that good? Anyone heard of them?

ECU TESTING ( on the net) does reconditioned ones for £160 if you send them yours or you can have yours rebuilt for £120, has anyone heard of these?
The only problem doing it this way is i need a garage to take it out so they can give me the model number so i know which to order and then ask if i can leave the car there until i get it delivered.


Has anyone any advice? i had a special offer for an MOT at kwick fit for £15 so ive booked it in for an early mot for a couple of reasons, id like to know if theres any other expensive jobs needing doing on it to see if its worth repairing it all, and if im lucky and the warning light stays off and it passes or only needs a small amount doing to it, the AA man said the car is ok to drive if the warning light comes on, so if i can get it through its mot it will give me 12 months to decide what i want to do.

The AA man said my starter motor was probably on the way out and thats why it had been sticking on start up.

The battery test report was
volts 12.27v
measured 291 EN (A)
Rating 390 EN(A)
Battery type Regular flooded

Anyone have any advice?
thanks

I'd check the alternator. Borrow a multimeter -- set it to DC volts (0-20 range). Take a reading -- at the battery, between the battery terminals -- with the engine off. Take another with the engine running. Take another with the lights on main beam. Post the results.

You can also clean up the earths -- the main ones are from the battery negative to the inner wing and from the other inner wing to the top of the gearbox. All you need is a 13mm spanner, some sandpaper and a tube of silicone grease (Maplins or your factor) -- in extremis, you can use Vaseline.

While it could be that you have an issue with the starter motor and the PAS, it does seem a weird co-incidence, does it not?

I've yet to hear anything bad of ECU testing.

At Kwik Fit prices, owning an old car gets very expensive, very quickly. They're simple enough cars, fairly reliable if looked after, DIY recommended.

I'd check the alternator. Borrow a multimeter -- set it to DC volts (0-20 range). Take a reading -- at the battery, between the battery terminals -- with the engine off. Take another with the engine running. Take another with the lights on main beam. Post the results.

You can also clean up the earths -- the main ones are from the battery negative to the inner wing and from the other inner wing to the top of the gearbox. All you need is a 13mm spanner, some sandpaper and a tube of silicone grease (Maplins or your factor) -- in extremis, you can use Vaseline.

While it could be that you have an issue with the starter motor and the PAS, it does seem a weird co-incidence, does it not?

I've yet to hear anything bad of ECU testing.

At Kwik Fit prices, owning an old car gets very expensive, very quickly. They're simple enough cars, fairly reliable if looked after, DIY recommended.

Thanks, i know very little about car engines, im taking it in for the Mot tomorrow really just for curiosity to know if anything is wrong with it, if i asked them to check the alternator at the same time would they do it?

Are you trying to say that because the PAS and starter motors have problems at the same time it could be easily the alternator? The AA man did say he tested it but as i didnt know what he was do i couldnt say he did, he did say it was giving out more than the battery was taking back in

The other thing ive notice which i dont know if anyone else has a problem with is condensation on the underside of the bonnet, when i lift it up the whole underside is covered in water droplets, i noticed that water was driping onto the big plastic thing in the middle of the engine, air filter? and it was running off it and theres electric wires under it which one has a piece of material wrapped around it, ive found this sodden once and then further down the metal bottom bit at the side of the alternator having a small puddle of water which is also near the dip stick, i presum is from condensation, i asked the AA man about it and he said it was the throttle wires and wouldnt affect the steering.
I do have to say the AA man didnt want to test the car, when he turned up he said strait away, where do you want to be towed, i said i dont, he said yes you have a faulty steering rack which garage do you want to go to, i said how do you know, he said coz i do one a week, so i said well should we not test the battery and alternator first to rule them out, which is when he did!

May as well ask them to check the alternator while it's there. If you can, charge the battery before the MOT -- a PAS fault -- however created -- is a sure and certain fail.

For the rest, pictures would be good. One more post and you'll be able to submit t5hem (easy way is through the gallery tab on the blue bar, top of page.

12.27v is low if this is just the voltage of the battery. If during a load test, that is good, so not necessarily a helpful result.

Starting and steering problems like you describe are often due to low battery voltage. That could be a discharged battery, a dying battery, poor connections or a poor alternator. As the AA man said it was putting out plenty, you probably need a new battery. Checking the connections as Fingers said is a good cheap start.

By now I suppose you'll be at Kwik Fit, or been and gone. Let us know what they said if you got them to test the alternator, and any other issues they reported. Whatever they said, don't panic.

Hi, thanks for your replies and advice,

I took it to kwickfit, i got quite stressed and forgot to ask them about the alternator! I didnt know where kwickfit was and the sat nav took me to the wrong place and i got there late.

The good news is the car past and the only thing on the advisory were 2 tyres , so that gives me a bit more time to find out what the problems are and i dont have to rush into fixing things.

I got fingers message this morning about charging the battery before going, i only have a trickle charger and put it on straight away ( i hadnt thought about it ) i think it got about 3 hours charge before i had to go. the steering light didnt come on half an hour there and half an hour back. im thinking of charging up the battery for longer to see if it keeps the light off as i still think it could be to do with the battery.

just a thought, could halfords check the alternator, if so would they do it for free? its such a quick thing to do isnt it?

Im sure the AA man checked the battery when it was off and on, and im positive he did the alternator with the lights on and the rear window heater, i could be wrong but im sure he said the reading was 19.72 and then said if he stood on the accelerator it would reach 20, it reached just under i think it was 19.97.

the print off for the battery report, says ,
Good, recharge
volts 12.27
measured 291 EN (A)
Rating 390 EN(A)

I dont know if thats during a load test or not.

ill take a pic of the battery tomorrow and maybe someone can advise if i should clean the connections?
I also have pics of all the condensation water under the bonnet and where its dripping which will post tomorrow

thanks again for your help

punto problems said:

Im sure the AA man checked the battery when it was off and on, and im positive he did the alternator with the lights on and the rear window heater, i could be wrong but im sure he said the reading was 19.72 and then said if he stood on the accelerator it would reach 20, it reached just under i think it was 19.97.

Click to expand...

Hopefully you are mistaken with those figures.

The battery is nominally 12v, but fully charged should show about 12.7v. Anything under 12.5v indicates it is partially discharged, which could be an indication of it failing, depending of course on conditions when tested.

To charge a battery you have to push harder than its nominal voltage, so a minimum of 13v is needed, but even that will charge poorly. The alternator should put out between 13.4 and 14.5v. Less than the 13.4v and it will not recharge the battery, merely hold its state. Above 14.6v it will start to damage the battery plates inside. If the figures you quote of nearly 20v are correct, you need a new alternator, and probably a new battery too.

Any garage should be able to pop a meter on and run the engine, noting the readings at idle with no load, then with all electrical bits turned on (voltage should not drop below 12.5), and with all on and raising the revs to a fast idle, (2000rpm). At that speed you should get 14v or thereabouts. More than 0.5v away from the 14v and you will have problems. So get it tested asap, not necessarily at Kwik Fit, as they are likely to be the most expensive. Smaller local garages will try to give you a better service, because they'll care more.

Edit your profile to show your location. There may be a forum member nearby able/willing to help.

Halfords do a battery drop test if thats what your asking - i believe its free as well

As for alternator testing - look for the garage that says free alternator testing

All it is a analogue multi-meter to test voltage against a scale printed behind needle

But tbh anything over 13v under load is good
But when you slog the punto with everything
lights - fogs - heaters - demister - stereo - Anythin on cig socket - indicating / braking - wipers and before you know it - the voltages start to suck....

I know i often sit discharging the battery when sat at the lights.... so i either switch things off - or hold higher rev's

Ziggy

Hi thanks again for your replies.

just one question, if the alternator is giving out 19-20 v can it damage anything else or is it just the battery, as i was thinking if its the battery and its already damaged it should i not drive it till the battery has gone then get the battery and alternator changed?

will take it to get tested when i get the chance, driven the car today for about 45 mins, no PAS warning light again

will see if i can upload pics of the battery, i also have pics of the condensation on the underside of the bonnet and where i can see it dripping,

The pics arent that great, i just wondered if anyone else gets so much condensation when they lift the bonnet, ive noticed it dripping on the black plastic thing in the middle of the engine the water gathers on the lip then looks like it trickles down onto the electrical wire below it the one with the black plug not the one with the yellow, it has a piece of material wrapped around it when its sodden, the water then drips down onto the black plastic thing below and to the left of the electrical wire with the yellow plug, then makes its way down and gathers around the bottom of the dip stick.

I just cant believe its good if its dripping onto the electrical wires? thats just what i can see, as like i said when i lift the bonnet up the whole thing is covered in water so i prisume its dripping everywhere.
Ive noticed the condensation in the mornings before i start the engine.

Firstly, I would expect a voltage that high to cause problems with all electronic items, so the ECU and body computer could be at risk, unless they have an inbuilt overvoltage protection.

Secondly, lots of condensation is not normal. This suggests there may be some water holding somewhere. The heater intake chamber is a probable location and there has been an issue with this filling up, eventually it will spill into the cabin. The drain tubes need to be kept clean and clear. There was a modified one for above the alternator to prevent it draining into the alternator, search the threads to find the details. With bonnet open, look below the windscreen, below the wipers into the chamber there. Probably clogged with leaves. There will be two drain tubes into the engine compartment, these will need squeezing to open and drain the water out, may also need removing to clean out any dead leaves and other debris.