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Old 17-07-2013   #1
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Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Hi,

Greetings from Singapore, where the temperature is 25-35 degrees celsius all year round.

Background and issues

My car is a MY 2010 Punto Evo 1.4 8V Dualogic with 37000kms (23000miles) on the clock.

For the past weeks, I have been getting the following issues during overnight cold start, or after more than 6 hours of standing.
  1. Oil pressure warning light takes 5 sec to go off during cold start?
  2. Message pops up saying "insuff. oil pressure stop & turn off engine"
  3. During which, the engine clatters and sounds like a diesel.
  4. Once the engine is fully warmed up after 10 minutes or so, the diesel sound disappears.

Engine oil is at the MAX level of the dipstick. This issue happens only in cold start. If the car is restarted in 10 minutes or 1 hour while the engine and oil is still hot, everything looks and sounds normal and the oil pressure warning light goes off in no more than 1 second. There are no weird or knocking sounds when driving or high revving when everything is in up to temperature.

What I have done
  1. Done engine flush before oil change
  2. Replaced engine oil with fully synthetic 5W40 and new oil filter
  3. Replaced oil pressure switch

I have done the aforementioned items, and ensured the engine oil is at the correct level, but they did no change to the cold start oil pressure issue.

I have visited 2 different mechanics with fiatecuscan and examiner, which they claimed the oil pressure reads ok (when engine is hot).

I queried if it could be due to a worn oil pump, worn main bearings or big ends, and both mechanics thought it is unlikely, as my engine's mileage is too low to have caused significant wear to the oil pump and bearings, even if I had been doing extended drain intervals. However, they do not have an explanation for the low oil pressure or diesel sounding engine during cold start.

I don't know what I should do next, short of getting the mechanics to drop the oil pan or strip the engine to investigate. If this issue can't be solved, I will probably just leave it and drive it to a point I need a rebuild.

Hence, any suggestions or similar experience to share will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
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Old 17-07-2013   #2
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Re: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Have you changed the oil filter?

If so what brand have you used? The none return valve might have failed in the filter.
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Old 17-07-2013   #3
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Re: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Quote Originally Posted by Andy Monty View Post
Have you changed the oil filter?

If so what brand have you used? The none return valve might have failed in the filter.
Alright, I have changed the oil filter though I must admit it's a Mitsubishi spec filter as it is very hard to get hold of the original Fiat oil filter #46544820 in my country.

I am not sure if this might have caused a significant differences in oil pressure during cold start.

The oil I am using is US Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 Euro.

In my next oil change, I plan to use Selenia K Pure Energy 5W-40. I'll probably purchase an original Fiat oil filter through Ebay UK.
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Old 17-07-2013   #4
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Re: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

In the past i have used FRAM part number PH5949 and MANN HUMMEL pert no W 610/3 filters with no issue on these engines (1.2 and 1.4 fire)



just wonder if the Mitsibushi filter has a none return valve or not
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Old 17-07-2013   #5
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Re: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Quote Originally Posted by Andy Monty View Post
In the past i have used FRAM part number PH5949 and MANN HUMMEL pert no W 610/3 filters with no issue on these engines (1.2 and 1.4 fire)



just wonder if the Mitsibushi filter has a none return valve or not
Out of curiosity, I'm going to assume these filters spin on filters? rather than whats on the multiair turbo's (Element)
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Old 17-07-2013   #6
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Re: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Hello,

I have the same engine as your's but with a manual gearbox.

When I do a cold start these days (15-20), the engine make noise for 1-2 sec, the time that the oil warning light turn off. I noticed this take a little time, but no worries for the moment, no messages at dashboard.

For your concern, have you tried to put a brief bit of gaz at start to reach 2000-2500 rpm ?

The next thing you should do is to put a manometer to have values at start with low rpm (1000rpm), and when hot at low and middle RPM. If you are interested by this, I hope I can find values to help you.

With this, we can say if there is a problem or not.
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Old 17-07-2013   #7
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Re: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Quote Originally Posted by scoop987 View Post
Out of curiosity, I'm going to assume these filters spin on filters? rather than whats on the multiair turbo's (Element)
yes they are screw on "can" type filters on the 1.2 & 1.4 8v
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Old 19-07-2013   #8
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Re: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Quote Originally Posted by Mkala View Post
Hello,

I have the same engine as your's but with a manual gearbox.

When I do a cold start these days (15-20), the engine make noise for 1-2 sec, the time that the oil warning light turn off. I noticed this take a little time, but no worries for the moment, no messages at dashboard.

For your concern, have you tried to put a brief bit of gaz at start to reach 2000-2500 rpm ?

The next thing you should do is to put a manometer to have values at start with low rpm (1000rpm), and when hot at low and middle RPM. If you are interested by this, I hope I can find values to help you.

With this, we can say if there is a problem or not.
Hi Mkala,

Yes, my car used to make a tappety sound for 1 or 2 seconds and it would go away. However, it's now become a clattering sound that goes away in 5 seconds followed by a tappety sound that goes away only after I put some gas to it.

It will be great if you can locate the values of the oil pressure. But as I have no manometer or oil pressure gauge installed, I'd likely have to go to a workshop to have the values checked.

I sprayed / cleaned the throttle plate, intake manifold and MAP sensor last night, hoping to achieve higher revs during cold start but it didn't change anything. Comparing mine with a year 2007 Grande Punto, my cold start revs are lower than normal. I'm pretty sure something is wrong somewhere with my car.

Here's a clip of the year 2007 Grande Punto with almost 200,000kms on the clock that I cold started a few days ago. Other than the transmission problem and very tappety engine, the oil pressure light went out in 1 second and the cold start revs were high like it should be.

And this is my Punto Evo's first start of the day this morning. Oil pressure light went out in about 5 seconds, triggering the "insuff. engine oil pressure" warning message. My cold start revs were not quite as high and it falls pretty rapidly.

I guess I'll have to send it to a specialist workshop with Examiner and leave it there for a few days to let them figure out what's wrong with it.
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Old 19-07-2013   #9
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Re: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Quote Originally Posted by Andy Monty View Post
In the past i have used FRAM part number PH5949 and MANN HUMMEL pert no W 610/3 filters with no issue on these engines (1.2 and 1.4 fire)



just wonder if the Mitsibushi filter has a none return valve or not
Hi,

I do not know if the Mitsubishi filter has a non return valve or correct PSI for the bypass valve.

My previous car was a Mitsubishi Colt Z23A not sold in UK. And I think for Japanese cars, the oil filters are usually mounted with the opening facing upwards.

For our Fiat, the opening is facing sideways. So there might be a problem with oil leaving the filter after the engine is turned off.

Will check this with the mechanics.

Thanks!
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Old 19-07-2013   #10
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Re: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Quote Originally Posted by G78K View Post
Hi Mkala,

Yes, my car used to make a tappety sound for 1 or 2 seconds and it would go away. However, it's now become a clattering sound that goes away in 5 seconds followed by a tappety sound that goes away only after I put some gas to it.

It will be great if you can locate the values of the oil pressure. But as I have no manometer or oil pressure gauge installed, I'd likely have to go to a workshop to have the values checked.

I sprayed / cleaned the throttle plate, intake manifold and MAP sensor last night, hoping to achieve higher revs during cold start but it didn't change anything. Comparing mine with a year 2007 Grande Punto, my cold start revs are lower than normal. I'm pretty sure something is wrong somewhere with my car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vo6X9AIk4
Here's a clip of the year 2007 Grande Punto with almost 200,000kms on the clock that I cold started a few days ago. Other than the transmission problem and very tappety engine, the oil pressure light went out in 1 second and the cold start revs were high like it should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTIC1s482Jo
And this is my Punto Evo's first start of the day this morning. Oil pressure light went out in about 5 seconds, triggering the "insuff. engine oil pressure" warning message. My cold start revs were not quite as high and it falls pretty rapidly.

I guess I'll have to send it to a specialist workshop with Examiner and leave it there for a few days to let them figure out what's wrong with it.
Hi G78K,

After some search, I found these values for the Grande Punto. I haven't any documentation for recent cars, as Elearn documentation is now online (should pay access to have it).
But the 1.4 8V is quite the same, only minors changes at intake manifold are done, and some other little thing as this.



Hope this can help you.

I'm not sure the examiner car tell your oil pressure value. Oil pressure switch is on/off type, and it warn only when very low pressure (0.5 bar about).

The only thing I can recomand you is screw on a manometer quickly to diagnose oil pressure, you can really worn your engine quickly....

Hope you find a good solution for your little Fiat engine !
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Last edited by Mkala; 19-07-2013 at 21:14. Reason: typo
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Old 25-07-2013   #11
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SOLVED: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Hello folks,

Dropped the oil pan at a workshop yesterday as I suspected the low oil pressure had something to do with the oil pick up tube.

We discovered the top end of the oil pick up tube where the o-ring sits was not manufactured properly (surface wasn't completely flat). As a result, air seeped through the gap and o-ring during start up resulting in slow build up of oil pressure.

Mechanic sanded the area smooth and flat, added gasket sealant to the o-ring and assembled everything back in place.

Lo and behold! Instant oil pressure during cold start this morning!
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Old 25-07-2013   #12
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Re: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Thank you for the feedback.

And good job, you saved your engine !!

Now at cold start, there is no noise and zero delay when you start ? Mine oila warning light take about 1sec, to shut off, is this normal ?

Can you post a video of your cold start ?
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Old 26-07-2013   #13
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SOLVED: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Hi Mkala,

Sorry, realised my reply is always late due to the time difference.

My oil pressure light takes less than 1 sec to go off now, but I think 1 sec is acceptable. Anything over 2 seconds probably isn't right, unless you're in freezing conditions?

The display will throw up the "Insuff. Engine Oil Pressure.." message if the oil pressure light fails to go off 3-4 seconds after start up.

Here's a video of my start up in the morning.

Anyway, removal of the oil pan wasn't as simple as I thought. Had to first remove a bar (something like an under brace?), followed by the downpipe as it was in the way. Next to come off was the flywheel cover and finally the oil pan. Crank pulley had to be removed before installation of the oil pan. Had a bit of cleaning up to remove the original gasket sealant which looked like it was all over the place.

Paid SGD180 (93) in all for the 3 hour job. I wonder how much it would cost to do the same in UK?
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Old 26-07-2013   #14
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Re: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Hi G78k,

Don't worry for the answer time it is really not a problem And in fact it is quite fast (many times poeple never answer, ever when someone help them )

And thanks for your video. Your oil light is quicker to shut off than mine. Morning cold start, but these days it mean about 20C :

zTAAFutKCrw

Are you at top of oil on dipstick ? I'm at the middle, perhaps should I top of it.
But never had warning message about oil pressure.

Yes it is not as simple as simple as we can imagine, as you said exhaust pipe is under the engine as exhaust side of engine is in front of car.

Happy to se your car doing well for not a lot of money
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Old 27-07-2013   #15
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Re: Insufficient Oil Pressure during cold start

Hi Mkala,

Yes my oil is at the top of the dipstick.

I think your oil pressure light is nothing to worry about unless it gets worse over time.

Most importantly, if your engine doesn't sound like diesel for more than 2 sec after start up, then it means oil is flowing well, pressure is good and it should be fine.

When I had the oil pressure problem, my engine sounded like diesel for more than a minute.

What engine oil are you using now? I ever used 5W30, engine sounded louder.
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