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Technical 2105 500 rear axle into 2007 Panda 169

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Technical 2105 500 rear axle into 2007 Panda 169

Looking forward to the saga. I hope it all goes well.

If it all works as hoped, the wider track will probably do a lot of good for the handling, although hopefully it won't cause more understeer.

From the comparisons on the other thread, finding the track increase is due to the hub brackets, I assume the 500's front wider track is down to longer lower arms. Increasing the front to match might be a challenge.

Keep us posted.
 
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portland_bill said:
From the comparisons on the other thread, finding the track increase is due to the hub brackets, I assume the 500's front wider track is down to longer lower arms. Increasing the front to match might be a challenge.
Click to expand...

I've not done any measuring at the front, but maintaining the camber might be challenging. I doubt it'd be as easy as just changing the lower arms.

One step at a time. Let's see what happens when the 500 beam is fitted.

DaveMcT - are you going to rustproof the 500 beam before you install it, or are you going for a trial fit first?
 
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The 500 axle is 50mm (25mm (1") each side) wider than the Panda 169. I have not yet stripped the Panda axle but it looks like the 500 hub carrier is 1/4" wider and the frame end brackets give 3/4" more track.

This is my axle as collected. All clean and complete with shocks, springs, hubs cables and hydraulics from hoses to wheel cylinders.

Its just a year old but paint is already failing. The paint is tough but there is just the one coat so any damage = rust.
IMG_2659_zpsz4fttnqv.jpg



This shows the wider hub mounting bracket and thicker hub carrier, yes it's unprotected iron so already rusting but being iron it will probably not go much further..
IMG_2660_zpsyualsln3.jpg



Brake hose as new.
IMG_2662_zpsjtadduqf.jpg



Rust is already beginning at welds under the spring bowl. Weld spatter also helps to attract rust.
IMG_2667_zpswzcvvydq.jpg
 
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All parts have sharp cut edges. Paint (or powder coat) will thin out to nothing at sharp corners. I've spent a couple of hours with a grinder to round off all sharp edges that I could get at. I would do this for paint or powder finish.

Overkill? Probably, but I'm a bit fussy like that.

This is after the first coat of Hammerite. All pipes and hubs have to come off and the paint is a major faff and impossible to do neatly but who's looking at the back axle? It will need another coat tomorrow to seal it properly. 24 hours to dry then I'll get at the car. If it was rusty I would be looking at getting it grit blasted and powder coated.

The extra width is in that cranked hub carrier bracket. The Panda is straight up from the swing arm tube. The 500 sticks out as we can see.
IMG_2672_zpstqng6h4l.jpg
 
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The new chassis brackets are as new but cut edges really are sharp, so I'll have to grind them smooth before painting.

These are the swing arm rubber bush pivot bolts. Zinc plated high tensile special anti shake nuts.
IMG_2670_zpseguszebp.jpg



Material type
IMG_2669_zps0rbt7zts.jpg
 
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portland_bill said:
That is interesting, that the extra width is a combination of bracket and hub carrier. Might you consider using the original Panda hub carriers to reduce the width a little?
Click to expand...

I can't be 100% sure the 169 hub carriers are thinner but if they really are I'll use them.

BTW, my "new" 500 brakes really are "as new". Hardly even touched. The surface rust is more tarnish that will go as soon as they are used.

IMG_2673_zpsovxqs00n.jpg
 
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So if the hub just bolts on, does this mean the ultra rear 100hp rear axles hubs and discs could just bolt on to a normal axle or is it different?? I've never looked at a 100hp rear axle set up. If it is that easy then at least there's more choice of axles for the 100hp owners so they can't be robbed price wise as much.

That's a tidy looking axle btw. A good find.
 
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Forgive my ignorance, what spec is your panda? I've got a later beam sat in my garage, still need to do the measuring for my 100hp. I've seen people quote a 2" track difference from the 500, but the brackets don't look like they kick a full inch out, so hopefully some is made up in the hub plates. If that's the case, using the original plates will get some clearance, I'm also wondering if they could be machined down a bit to give a little more, or custom ones made. As for driving with it, it would be no different to running spacers, which have been used the world over without issues
 
dozer said:
So if the hub just bolts on, does this mean the ultra rare 100hp rear axles hubs and discs could just bolt on to a normal axle or is it different??
Click to expand...

If it were just a question of bolting on a different hub, then why would the beam be a different part?

It may be the difference is trifling (like the location of the brackets securing the handbrake cable) - in which case it's not really much of an issue - or something more substantial (like the stiffness of the beam).

It would be most helpful to know exactly what the differences are. I suspect we'll know more once the various projects currently underway come to fruition. Full marks to anyone who's thinking outside the box and experimenting with the alternative beams.

I suspect the 100HP is destined to become a minor classic, and finding alternatives to the model-specific parts will assume greater significance as the fleet ages. Certainly there will be a near-limitless supply of 500 parts for many years to come.
 
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Asa James said:
It's Sunday morning Bill, why must you give me bad news? [emoji14] new plan then. Can you get wheels machined for extra offset...?
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Sorry its bad news for you. Only reporting what I find.

The wheel offset is determined at manufacture, being the distance from the mounting face to the centreline of the wheel. Steel wheels are sometimes widened, by cutting apart and inserting a band around the centre and rewelded. The effectively changes the offset, but only because the wheel is wider, but the mounting face is still the same distance from the outside edge. So that won't give extra clearance on the outside.

Alloy wheels, cast in one piece can't be altered in the same way. (Well, I suppose they could, but welding aluminium alloy is very specialist and likely to melt some while practising. Balancing afterwards might be a challenge.)

The offset is designed to place the centreline of the wheel over the centre of the bearings. Moving it can lead to shortened bearing life. Original Minis often had their wheels spaced outwards, simply with spacer discs between the hub and wheel. Replacing wheel bearings than became an annual event.

Using the 500 axle on a standard Panda with steel wheels may well be OK, but the wider alloy wheels might give clearance issues, we wait and see.
How about standard 155/80x13 steels on the 100hp? Probably not!
 
portland_bill said:
How about standard 155/80x13 steels on the 100hp?
Click to expand...

Clearance issues with the front brakes?

portland_bill said:
The offset is designed to place the centreline of the wheel over the centre of the bearings. Moving it can lead to shortened bearing life. Original Minis often had their wheels spaced outwards, simply with spacer discs between the hub and wheel. Replacing wheel bearings than became an annual event.
Click to expand...

Well at least you may have found a way of widening the rear track without putting any extra stress on the bearings.
 
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Asa James said:
It's Sunday morning Bill, why must you give me bad news? [emoji14] new plan then. Can you get wheels machined for extra offset...?
Click to expand...

I would be much easier to cut and weld the hub carrier brackets. They are laser cut 4mm steel. You will need a jig to align the ends while trimming the cut bits and finally welding.

The jig could be angle iron and shims. Bolt it all up align with shims and weld.

It goes without saying that this needs to be done properly. But the original welds are on one side only and the whole beam feels well over engineered.

The later axle with anti roll bar will also need its associated springs and dampers. Springs are 30% softer.

portland_bill said:
Using the 500 axle on a standard Panda with steel wheels may well be OK, but the wider alloy wheels might give clearance issues, we wait and see.
How about standard 155/80x13 steels on the 100hp? Probably not!
Click to expand...

Mine is a Dynamic with air con and front electric windows but manual mirrors and steel wheels. It has loads of space for a wider back axle but wider wheels or low ride height would be an issue. Im sure the 500 axles could be made to fit a 100bhp but as said the end brackets would need cutting, jigging and welding.

I do wonder why Fiat changed the axle design when spacer blocks under the hub carriers would have been just as good.
 
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The old Classic Mini had all sorts of tuning parts including a full beam axle that did away with the massively heavy back subframe.

The Punto/Panda back subframe is a heavy beast (though positively waife like compared to the Mini). Does nobody offer a lightweight tuning upgrade for the 100 BHP.
 
DaveMcT said:
I do wonder why Fiat changed the axle design when spacer blocks under the hub carriers would have been just as good.
Click to expand...

You don't use three parts where one will do. More money to make, more inventory to control, more time needed to assemble. On a production run of half a million cars, even a few pennies difference in cost is significant.
 
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