General Ice and Panda's dont mix.

Currently reading:
General Ice and Panda's dont mix.

You're saying he crashed because he can't drive? Bit harsh.

ESP does things you cant. End of story.

How much would braking a wheel do? You'd be suprised, but you all seem to be luddites when it comes to driving safety aids.


No, if you read what I wrote you will see what I am saying is that ESP will not be effective on ice. Braking wheels on ice do not work, think about physics and stuff. (y)

ESP may do things I can't, but I can do things ESP can't and therein lies the problem. (n)
 
No, if you read what I wrote you will see what I am saying is that ESP will not be effective on ice. Braking wheels on ice do not work, think about physics and stuff. (y)

ESP may do things I can't, but I can do things ESP can't and therein lies the problem. (n)

oh ESP can and does work on ice then again it cant brake laws of physics watch it about 6-7 mins in .....

apologies to those who have seen it before (y)

 
Last edited:
No, if you read what I wrote you will see what I am saying is that ESP will not be effective on ice. Braking wheels on ice do not work, think about physics and stuff. (y)

ESP may do things I can't, but I can do things ESP can't and therein lies the problem. (n)

Won't be as effective. Still better than being a passenger to the accident.
 
ESP and ABS do work - that's unequivocal. However, they’re not the saving grace some people assume them to be. There are other factors to consider in order to get the best out of the systems, and will still have to remember:

DRIVING AIDS CANNOT DEFY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS

In the 5th Gear video, if that X-Type had been fitted with summer tyres (as the majority of cars in the UK are when it gets cold) it wouldn't have got up that hill, ESP or not. The tyres aren't designed to cope with those conditions - they go brittle in the low temperatures due to the compound of rubber they're made from, and the tread pattern is designed primarily for dispersing water and providing high speed stability, not clawing into icy surfaces and promoting cold weather traction.

Winter tyres on the other had are designed around achieving this, rather than offering summer temperature performance. Indeed, run a winter tyre through summer and it'll overheat and delaminate as it's made from a softer less brittle compound of rubber. Its tread pattern is designed with thousands of sipes which are designed to stop a blanket of snow forming round the tyre which is reduces available traction to zero - exactly what happens with a summer tyre in these conditions.

I've driven all types of cars in all weathers, and you can't get blinkered by driving aids as they are only able to manipulate what's available to the driver. I've 360'd an M3 on the Nordschleife in the summer with traction control fully engaged (BMW Driver Training before anyone accuses me of being irresponsible!) because I simply put the car into a situation where I overwhelmed the systems. Likewise I've driven the same car on a wet bed at 50 mph and not been able to 'lose it'.

ABS works exactly as described too - get ABS working and you can still easily steer round obstacles - assuming though that the other aspects of your car are correct - one of the most important of these being tyre choice. Try steering round a cone with ABS on ice with summer tyres fitted and you won't - because the car will not grip regardless - you have no grip available, the car has no grip available. It might make a better attempt than a human, but you can't call that success. Likewise I've tried to go up icy hills on summer tyres in an M3 CSL and contrary to what the video shows, I got further with traction control turned off than with it engaged - had I had correct tyres fitted the story would have been oh so different.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it annoys me that the systems fitted to modern cars to AID driving and potentially make it SAFER, are marketed as systems that make it impossible to have an accident, and I really think this is more dangerous than not having the systems fitted at all. I know plenty of people who rely on these systems to keep them on the road - even drivers of high performance vehicles who go round corners with the TC light flashing the whole way round simply because they know no better. Take that system away and they'll be in the bushes before you know it.

So, to conclude, I'm with trackdayqueen - learn to handle a car in a controlled environment. Learn the physics of what happens AT and BEYOND the limit of your car. Learn about correct tyre choices and condition dependent driving styles. Then, and only then, use the systems in place in modern vehicles to AID your driving, rather than assume they'll do it for you.

The driving test in this country isn't hard enough - people can legally drive a car on the road having never driven on a motorway, at night, in the rain, in other poor conditions, or even with other passengers in the car. They can then go and buy what they are told is an 'uncrashable' car because it has stability control.

This, as I said at the start, is more dangerous than someone who knows what they're doing driving a car completely unassisted and why I always end up getting on my soap box at this time of year.

Learn to drive.
Maintain your car.
Adapt it to cope with the conditions encountered.

Would you wear flip-flops in a ski resort? No. So don't drive on summer tyres in the winter.

Ben
 
Couldn't agree more.

You shouldn't be relying on ESP and ABS anyway, they're there as last resorts to _TRY_ to save you from yourself. Same as airbags, crumple zones, safety cells...

:yeahthat:

God only knows how drivers survived in the past with no ABS/ESP and a crappy heater and having to put a muff on the Radiator,

People think that the car will save them every time and drive "accordingly"....
 
:yeahthat:

God only knows how drivers survived in the past with no ABS/ESP and a crappy heater and having to put a muff on the Radiator,

People think that the car will save them every time and drive "accordingly"....

Older cars are lighter and slower. I'd hate to try and drive our 1600Kg croma quickly without ESP and ABS. ABS probably wouldn't be used but even in moderatly quick driving - ESP can be kicking in to correct understeer and prevent oversteer.
 
Older cars are lighter and slower. I'd hate to try and drive our 1600Kg croma quickly without ESP and ABS. ABS probably wouldn't be used but even in moderatly quick driving - ESP can be kicking in to correct understeer and prevent oversteer.

Not true at all. There are plenty of quick older cars out there.

Like Ben said relying on ABS and ESP to save from yourself is asking for trouble. Far, far better to learn the skills required so that you can save yourself full stop.

I can give examples where ESP nearly killed me because it unbalanced the car. Or situations where if I had had ABS I would have wrote the car off. So these systems are not infallible.

I also worry that having all these 'bad aids' dumbs down driving ability because you never have to learn how to handle a car properly.

I simply would not have bought my 100hp if it was specced with ESP as standard. I will buy cars with ESP but only if I can switch it off and you can't on panda's with it.

What I don't understand is why you'd want ESP to 'correct' oversteer or understeer, why not simply correct it yourself with a bit of decent technique?

One thing is for sure you will never be quicker with ESP on than you will without it. In cars that I have driven quickly with ESP on I have found it somewhere between incredibly frustrating and downright dangerous.
 
How are you going to correct understeer mid-corner safely. It's an inherint trait of FWD cars that the speed you go into a corner has to be correct or you'll understeer. Alternative is lift off oversteer and that's not something you should be doing on public roads.

What cars have you been driving with ESP which make it dangerous? I've not seen one thread on this forum of 35,000 members where ESP has made them crash.

As for dumbing down driving. 50% of drivers out there don't have any driving skills. I'd rather they have ESP and ABS to do it for them than have them drive into me or my family.
 
What cars have you been driving with ESP which make it dangerous? I've not seen one thread on this forum of 35,000 members where ESP has made them crash.

wasnt there a post a few weeks before helz crash where she said esp didnt kick in when she thought it would and she had a slose shave?

edit i cant find thread maybe it was on fb or i dreamed it:eek:
 
Last edited:
How are you going to correct understeer mid-corner safely. It's an inherint trait of FWD cars that the speed you go into a corner has to be correct or you'll understeer. Alternative is lift off oversteer and that's not something you should be doing on public roads.

What cars have you been driving with ESP which make it dangerous? I've not seen one thread on this forum of 35,000 members where ESP has made them crash.

As for dumbing down driving. 50% of drivers out there don't have any driving skills. I'd rather they have ESP and ABS to do it for them than have them drive into me or my family.

There are a few ways to correct understeer mid corner, lift, or brake. The panda is a very easy car to handle as it tends to veer towards understeer, its extremely difficult to make it oversteer in the dry. In the wet it can be done however.

100hpsideways.jpg


Lift off oversteer is not hard to sort out either, you just floor it and point the wheels in the direction you want to go.

I've done loads of lift off oversteer on the roads and on track in my integra. It's easy to control.

I once had to race an RX8 with the stipulation that the stability control etc had to remain on. I was not happy. I went into a corner the inside rear wheel was braked by the ESP causing the car to lurch dangerously which nearly resulted in me going sideways into a tyre wall at around 90mph. Fortunately I managed to avoid said tyre wall.

In the RWD cars i've had in recent years, various mk1 mr2s, with/without LSDs, with/without superchargers it's reasonably easy to powerslide one of these with some practice which is always fun on a wet roundabout. Ditto my old 325i with it's LSD.

It's not my fault most people can't drive. But really in a car that is so easy to handle as the panda you'd need to be a complete buffoon to get into serious trouble.
 
I took my 500 100HP on track a few times this year and whilst I was initially frustrated with the 'interfering' ESP the more I learned to drive within the performance envelope of the car the more it started to make sense.

A very wet trackday at Snetterton convinced me that in fact rather than being limiting, ESP is awesome. Overtaking a Skyline around the outside in the wet while simply 'piloting' the little 500 was a quite surreal experience. The ESP modulated the power and braking to control the car in a situation when I should have either understeered off or spun.

Think of it like the Eurofighter Typhoon - a plane that is aerodynamically unstable to allow lightning fast changes of direction.
Without the computer the plane simply would not be able to be flown by the pilot, it interprets the control inputs and controls the surfaces accordingly.

An extreme comparison but it illustrates the point.

It's a potentially dangerous activity driving, so it makes sense to have the very best active and passive safety features. This includes winter tyres!
 
I took my 500 100HP on track a few times this year and whilst I was initially frustrated with the 'interfering' ESP the more I learned to drive within the performance envelope of the car the more it started to make sense.

A very wet trackday at Snetterton convinced me that in fact rather than being limiting, ESP is awesome. Overtaking a Skyline around the outside in the wet while simply 'piloting' the little 500 was a quite surreal experience. The ESP modulated the power and braking to control the car in a situation when I should have either understeered off or spun.

But the fun of driving on track in the wet is that you can get the car to move around and play with it. I had an absolute ball a couple of weeks ago in the wet at Anglesey in a supercharged mk1 mr2 with LSD, also had some fun with a 400bhp+ mk2 mr2.
 
Back
Top